U.S.S. Lagarto video R.I.P.

[Freiwillige]

Allot of interesting speculation here.

Was the pressure hull breached? Why didn't the men try to escape?

[hotrod1525]

Thank you for that Link.

[Fish40]

Funny, but I don't think they mentioned the possability of a circular running torpedo that may have done the damage. The empty open tube shows a torpedo was fired. The position of dive planes and rudder show a drastic attempt to get away from something. Then again, a torpedo may have caused even more severe damage, breaching the pressure hull as well.

[Armistead]

If that would've been a torp hit, the damage would've been drastic, that's why they say it was a charge, same damage pattern a charge would cause.

Still, I find it strange they took such on such a deep angle, almost like they were on the surface diving. Highly doubtful they would've gone to that extreme angle already dived. The tactic sure appears to be dodging, but no doubt they were hit when in the dive turning. Just so strange, you would think without the hull being broached they could've pulled out of the dive unless the planes got stuck. Surely all the doors were closed. Be interesting if they could look through the sub, bet that would give a lot of answers.

How fearful it must be to die like this, seems they had some time to ponder a coming death. Think I would just put a bullet in my head. Brave men and most so young.

[Bubblehead1980]

Lagarto's story has fascinated me since I heard it, just struck me for some reason.

Japanese records indicate the Minlayer Hatsutaka conducted a depth charge attack on 3 May, 1945 in the area where Lagarto went down and reported sinking.However, Japanese reported sinking a lot of submarines they did not.

Perhaps Lagarto attacked, then being in shallow waters with the escort barrelling in, tried a down the throat shot? This would explain the empty tube.After firing, they went ahead flank, tried to put some depth on and turn to get out from under.This would explain the dive planes and rudder position. Then the lucky depth charge exploded near.

As to why no one escaped, who knows.Maybe some did but no one survived.Quite a few escaped Tang but not many lived through the night in the water.

[Armistead]

I agree Bubble. I think they had to be on the surface. I think it said the planes were at full dive. If they would've been dived, hitting full planes would've been crazy in shallow water. Wonder if that escort came up on them and they just got under....never know. With only one tube fired it was obvious they tried to attack something quick. I would think if they were gonna fire on a convoy other tubes would be open and ready. Maybe they tried a shot on the escort and missed and just got under....

The escorts the US subs fought all appeared to have radar and put up some good gun battles driving the subs off.

I understand not wanting to pry around in the sub, but would be amazing to know how it is inside, but obvious the JP's didn't lie about this one, that was a fairly close hit. Think that shows they probably saw where it dived.

[Diopos]

Damn shallows ...

.

[Freiwillige]

Upon further reading on the subject the bow planes are at full dive but the stern planes are at full surface! One guy speculated that maybe the men in the rear of the boat were trying to get her up but that the weight of the possibly waterlogged front just pulled them down.

Allot of speculation at this point. It may in fact be fully air tight. They don't know, In the research I've found it say's that it looks as if the pressure hull was not breached to the divers visual inspection but its difficult to be certain.

But one can be certain that the rear of the boat is sealed. All the hatches are closed so no escape attempt was tried. And one can assume that anybody that was not in the effected compartment survived the initial attack. I don't even want to imagine what those minutes or hours were like for these young men.

Did they choose to stay as so to not get captured? Did they think they were too deep to try an escape? More questions than answer's on this one.

I wonder if it were possible with today's technology to see if all compartments are in fact water tight or if some are flooded. That would help in understanding this mystery.

[DaveyJ576]

I wouldn't read too much into the position of the dive planes and the rudder. A depth charge exploding that close to the hull would have really thrown the crew around. It is entirely possible that the planesmen and the helmsman grabbed hold of their wheels in an attempt to keep themselves upright and in the process moved them drastically. It also looks like the charge exploded slightly above the hull which would have had a tendency to push her downwards. Impact with the bottom would have been violent, once again potentially causing the crewmen to inadvertantly move the planes. In addition, it is entirely plausible that the depth charges damaged the control hydraulics, forcing the planes and the rudder to the limits of their travel.

Making an escape from a sunken submarine during wartime is an extremely risky endeavor. The crew would have viewed it with a great deal of trepidation. They would have wanted to wait until they could be reasonably assured that the enemy had cleared the area. Not because they feared capture, but because they didn't want to be run over by the escort or depth charged while they were in the water. Once the Lagarto hit the bottom, the conditions inside the boat would probably have been pretty bad. Men would have been injured and there would have been all sorts of damage, from fires and electrical shorts to flooding and chlorine gas. The crew would have attempted to save the boat, which might have created an additional delay in an escape attempt.

It is pretty clear from the photos and the drawings that the pressure hull was breached in the area of the forward battery/forward torpedo room bulkhead, possibly flooding both compartments. A similar situation occured on the Tang, although on the opposite end of the boat. Conditions got very bad inside the boat before an escape was made and only a handful made it to the surface. It wouldn't be a stretch to speculate that the crew of Lagarto succumbed before they could make an attempt. Chlorine gas, smoke, fires; any of those could have got them.

I am heartened by the fact the Lagarto went down fighting. Frank Latta was no wuss, he would have directed an aggressive attack against the Hatsutaka. Unfortunately the roll of the dice went against them and our shipmates are now resting in a well earned sleep.

[Armistead]

Not buying that, why a big boom may cause a jerk, it takes time to turn a sub into a full turn and a full dive, that's many spins of the wheel, activating levers, ect., all evidence clearly shows a full dive and turn, a blast may have knocked them off the equipment in the control room for a few seconds. It takes time to put a sub into a full dive and turn with concentrated movements, they were no doubt evading

Also, the inner hull was never breached at the blast location, so why some pipes may have busted it wasn't an implosion of water. The other doors would've been locked.

[Bubblehead1980]

Since the torpedo tube was open, the planes in dive position, rudder hard over, I believe they were trying to attack the minelayer, perhaps even with a down the throat shot(not sure if torpedo was still in tube, not sure if they could tell or not) and the minelayer roared overhead, they were trying to evade and the "golden BB" aka perfectly placed depth charge got them.Even if the pressure hull was not breeched the boat was badly damaged.

Perhaps some made it out and Japanese took prisoners but none lived to tell the tale? Japanese records were lost, destroyed or just not accurate.The Japanese kept many POW's secret, O Kane was not known to be alive until war was over.

Would be cool if someone could find the Tang...

[Armistead]

The torp was missing from the tube. The video shows the door open and torp gone, thus it was shot as the tube would've been loaded. Again, just one tube being open and shot shows it was probably shooting at an escort, plus no reported attack on the merchants.

Strange, some sites say the inner hull was never breached, others say it was, certainly if it was that may have trapped it on the bottom, battery fumes, running out of air, who knows.

Another fact is a few experienced crew were replaced as often done before this patrol.

[DaveyJ576]

Check out this link:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0837112.jpg

This drawing was made by the divers who discovered the wreck. Notes at the bottom of the drawing clearly indicate that the pressure hull was breached by the depth charge.

I have personnally been inside a submarine, underwater, that was involved in a collision. While not a depth charge, I can tell you from first hand experience that a shock like that is quite violent and could potentially cause the situation that I described above. I am not saying that is what happened in this case, I was merely trying to inject some informed speculation.

The alternative is that the crew accidentally drove the boat into the bottom, which would have been a serious operational mistake. Latta and his crew would have been well aware of the water depth when this attack began. They would have known that they would have to be very careful with depth control or they would run aground, a situation nearly as dire as being caught by the escort. Grounding a submarine could cause serious damage (research the USS Dragonet SS-293 on Wiki). In 250 feet of water with the 311 foot submarine at periscope depth it would not take much more that a 10 degree down angle and the bow would be in the mud.

Attacking the Hatsutaka in shallow water was an extraordinarily ballsy move on par with Sam Dealey and Mush Morton. Latta took a big chance with the possibility of a big payoff, but was forced to thread a very fine needle indeed between the Hatsutaka and the bottom.

[nikimcbee]

Great find, thanks for posting

This drawing was made by the divers who discovered the wreck. Notes at the bottom of the drawing clearly indicate that the pressure hull was breached by the depth charge.

Maybe the water tight hatches weren't closed? If the inner pressure hull has fractured, it would have taken on water very quickly and maybe drowned everybody before they could reach?

[razark]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Allot of speculation at this point. It may in fact be fully air tight. They don't know, In the research I've found it say's that it looks as if the pressure hull was not breached to the divers visual inspection but its difficult to be certain.
...
I wonder if it were possible with today's technology to see if all compartments are in fact water tight or if some are flooded.

After 60+ years under water would it still be possible for the boat not to be flooded, even if all doors had been closed and the pressure hull not breached?