"Dumbing down" versus "transparency"

[karamazovnew]

Let's face it, the main fun of playing SH is being stuck in your metal tube with a few station screens, trying to mentally paint the big picture. There is a huge difference between following tutorial steps to sink ships and actually understanding and predicting what is going out around you and adapting to any situation. SH is a game of chess where the pieces disappear every time you submerge.

The moment you turn off map contacts, automatic targeting and external cameras, the game changes completely. Unless you really understand what's going on, you're going out there completely blind. Your job as a Kaleun is to attack convoys. That means positioning, infiltrating, attacking and then slipping away. If any of these steps isn't completely clear, then you're missing the whole point.

Many accuse Ubi of turning SH5 into a console action game and dumbing it down for noobs. Think again...
SH3 was the first sub game I've ever played. I had no navy background at all and didn't know port from stern (pun intended). Although we now consider SH3 to be to pinnacle of sub sims, let me make a bold statement here: to any newcomer to the series,SH3 and SH4 are weird-paced, buggy and poorly documented and designed shooters. They show a glimpse that there might be more to them, but that private club is closed shut to any newcomer. SH3 and SH4 don't need mods as alternatives, they are mandatory to play the game correctly.

Sub sims are a very niche market, a very exclusive club unlike any other sim. In flight sims you fly and shoot things down. In car sims you drive. In surface naval sims you drive and shoot. In train sims you go forward and stop in stations. None require you to read a chinese Foo-Kin geometry manual to play them.

A sub sim needs excellent documentation and interface, which SH has lacked so far. The documentation in SH3 and SH4 is barely enough to allow you to play at minimum difficulty settings. The interface lacks tools to allow you to calculate the speed of your target and the all-important stadimeter is usually bugged. The notepad in UBM is unusable.

If it weren't for this amazing community and the passion of so many members, I'd be still playing World of Warcraft right now. One year ago (exactly) I saw Das Boot and I said to myself "wait a second, do I still have that sub game around? Hmm... 3 years... maybe a new one came up, let's google". And that's how I found Subsim.com. Mods and tutorials have opened that closed door and I'm now able to appreciate the wonder that SH3 and SH4 can bring, all thanks to these wonderful devs.

SH5 promises the transparency needed to allow any player to go from noob to Topp. Even on the lowest difficulty, players will be able to see the big picture:
- enemy sensors: shown on map
- intermediate manual targeting: speed vectors for target and torpedo (best idea yet in SH5, those who know... know)
- sinking mechanics: easy to see integrity and flooding bars.
Even in a shoot-em-down they'll feel they're doing something special and want more.

I don't think they aren't dumbing down anything or just looking for profit. If they were, they would've made the game for XBOX and PS3 too. They know what a joy this game can be and want to make it accessible to all players that buy it. I once asked myself if Ubi wasn't relying too much on modders. When they announced that the game will be even more moddable, I asked myself if we would get an unfinished product that modders must then fix. On the contrary, if so far Ubi had a lot to thank for the modding community, I believe that from now on, we'll have more to thank them, as a much bigger percentage of buyers will become more interested and involved into the game they've bought. I think Ubi should help Neal with a few more servers because soon this forum is going to get very crowded.

[codmander]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

Let's face it, the main fun of playing SH is being stuck in your metal tube with a few station screens, trying to mentally paint the big picture. There is a huge difference between following tutorial steps to sink ships and actually understanding and predicting what is going out around you and adapting to any situation. SH is a game of chess where the pieces disappear every time you submerge.

The moment you turn off map contacts, automatic targeting and external cameras, the game changes completely. Unless you really understand what's going on, you're going out there completely blind. Your job as a Kaleun is to attack convoys. That means positioning, infiltrating, attacking and then slipping away. If any of these steps isn't completely clear, then you're missing the whole point.

Many accuse Ubi of turning SH5 into a console action game and dumbing it down for noobs. Think again...
SH3 was the first sub game I've ever played. I had no navy background at all and didn't know port from stern (pun intended). Although we now consider SH3 to be to pinnacle of sub sims, let me make a bold statement here: to any newcomer to the series,SH3 and SH4 are weird-paced, buggy and poorly documented and designed shooters. They show a glimpse that there might be more to them, but that private club is closed shut to any newcomer. SH3 and SH4 don't need mods as alternatives, they are mandatory to play the game correctly.

Sub sims are a very niche market, a very exclusive club unlike any other sim. In flight sims you fly and shoot things down. In car sims you drive. In surface naval sims you drive and shoot. In train sims you go forward and stop in stations. None require you to read a chinese Foo-Kin geometry manual to play them.

A sub sim needs excellent documentation and interface, which SH has lacked so far. The documentation in SH3 and SH4 is barely enough to allow you to play at minimum difficulty settings. The interface lacks tools to allow you to calculate the speed of your target and the all-important stadimeter is usually bugged. The notepad in UBM is unusable.

If it weren't for this amazing community and the passion of so many members, I'd be still playing World of Warcraft right now. One year ago (exactly) I saw Das Boot and I said to myself "wait a second, do I still have that sub game around? Hmm... 3 years... maybe a new one came up, let's google". And that's how I found Subsim.com. Mods and tutorials have opened that closed door and I'm now able to appreciate the wonder that SH3 and SH4 can bring, all thanks to these wonderful devs.

SH5 promises the transparency needed to allow any player to go from noob to Topp. Even on the lowest difficulty, players will be able to see the big picture:
- enemy sensors: shown on map
- intermediate manual targeting: speed vectors for target and torpedo (best idea yet in SH5, those who know... know)
- sinking mechanics: easy to see integrity and flooding bars.
Even in a shoot-em-down they'll feel they're doing something special and want more.

I don't think they aren't dumbing down anything or just looking for profit. If they were, they would've made the game for XBOX and PS3 too. They know what a joy this game can be and want to make it accessible to all players that buy it. I once asked myself if Ubi wasn't relying too much on modders. When they announced that the game will be even more moddable, I asked myself if we would get an unfinished product that modders must then fix. On the contrary, if so far Ubi had a lot to thank for the modding community, I believe that from now on, we'll have more to thank them, as a much bigger percentage of buyers will become more interested and involved into the game they've bought. I think Ubi should help Neal with a few more servers because soon this forum is going to get very crowded.

Thats fine as long as the dumb down features can be removed and/or shut off.... in sh3 that cant be removed because of dumbin down... lock scope on target even in bad visblity.... being able to fire torp with noone in foward torp room ...etc etc allready see that lock on the sh5 scope hopefully it will just lock on bearing

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by codmander

in sh3 that cant be removed because of dumbin down... lock scope on target even in bad visblity.... being able to fire torp with noone in foward torp room ...etc etc

I have an easy way to remove those "dumb down" features from the game. First, don't lock the scope on a target you can't see visually. Second, don't fire a torpedo unless you have the forward torpedo room manned.

Just like magic, eh?

[gimpy117]

I think we need to make a printable in depth attack instructions that not only indicate good planning but also math equations for targeting solutions but also showing how to use the in game tools. i think this would help a lot of young players like my self learn to manually do things.

[looney]

I actually like the lock feature... sure sometimes it locks on to ship I can't see, but more oftenly it doesn't lock on ships I CAN see, or it looses lock.
We can't control the stadimeter like RL, cause we have only 1 imput device (mouse) compared to both hands on a attack scope.

[Lord Justice]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

If it weren't for this amazing community and the passion of so many members, I'd be still playing World of Warcraft right now. One year ago (exactly) I saw Das Boot and I said to myself "wait a second, do I still have that sub game around? Hmm... 3 years... maybe a new one came up, let's google". And that's how I found Subsim.com. Mods and tutorials have opened that closed door and I'm now able to appreciate the wonder that SH3 and SH4 can bring, all thanks to these wonderfull devs.

SirKaramazovnew, how do you do sir? Once again you never fail to deliver a lenghty post with thought and consideration, but iam rather curious to where does above mentioned paragraph fit into title of thread? Under general topics there is a thread of which includes title of " how you found subsim ". Also praise when praise is due, but does it warrant proper address within this thread? in light of recent events one admires the new found welcome of recognition, but how far shall we rock the boat of appreciation, of which ferries ambitious intentions. Still a fellow ought to look good in front of the men dont you think? Perhaps this in its true form needs dumbing down. good day

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by 4Para

iam rather curious to where does above mentioned paragraph fit into title of thread?

I thought the first post made more sense . I wrote it at the peak of despair and horror that was present in 99% of members that were convinced that the game would become of Bird of Prey type of sim. It was just to remind them that a lot of the people who bought SH3 and SH4 never had the complete SH experience. What to us, pre-release, might look like an arcade-game, might simply be an effort of the devs to sink in the sim experience in all that will eventually buy SH5.

Dumbing down: making the game easier and more flashy to attract more new players, at the expense of hardcore simulator features

Transparent: better design of the middle-ground difficulty to help players of all types to understand the game, allowing for more simulator features at low difficulty.

[EgoApocalypse]

First comment......well said Kara.......well said.