Depth Charged on 2nd September 1939

[Captain Nemo]

Started a new career in GWX and have been allocated BF17 as my first patrol grid. In BF18 I get a contact report of a neutral convoy heading SW at 5 knots. I thought to myself, well it's Sept 2nd so can't sink anything but if I can make contact it's worth shadowing and if war breaks out I can start an attack. I made contact in broad daylight with visibility unlimited. From what I can see there is one destroyer up front and some juicy tonnage in the convoy. Anyway, a few minutes later I'm under attack from the destroyer! Decided to turn and put the stern of my u-boat towards the oncoming destroyer and go to flank speed. It's a V&W Class pouring on the coal at 34 knots so no way I'm going to out run this one. Dive down to periscope depth and wait for it to close the distance. A sneaky view through the periscope reveals it to be Polish! No wonder why the Captain took a dislike to me lurking on the fringe of the convoy! I considered a stern shot but thought better of it and decided to dive deeper but the ocean floor is at 120 metres. Then the pinging starts and depth charges rain down on me giving my boat a good shake up. Managed to crawl away at 2 knots at 100 metres depth. It would have been my worst career to date if I had got sunk before war breaks out with Britain.

As an aside, in real life did convoys start up before Britain declared war?

Nemo

[Ancient Mariner]

I am not sure,but if they fired first would you be put to a tribunal for defending yourself by attacking the DDs? I mean to me it's an act of war

Edit: Didnt the war start on the 1st of Sept? The english declared war that day too,if I am not mistaken

[Captain Nemo]

Britain declared war on Germany on 3 September, but German hostilities against Poland began on 1 September. I could have rightly sunk the Polish destroyer but not the merchant ships in the convoy.

Nemo

[U2222]

I had a similar experience with a Polish destroyer in the western appraches on Sept 1st 39.
Very temped to sink him in self defence but chickened out - fear of British propoganda declaring him a neutral - and SH3 not recognising him as a hostile.

[Feuer Frei!]

No wonder he attacked, Germany was at war with Poland on the 1st of September........

• 1 September 1939: The German invasion of Poland.(At 04:45AM to be precise the order was given to start hostilities)

• 3 September 1939: France and Britain declared war on Germany. (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa followed by 10 September).
  The Soviet Union: 22 June 1941 (German attack on the USSR).

this is interesting reading re the treating of neutral shipping:


"I now come to several documents dealing with the treatment of neutrals outside the declared danger zones. As the first document I submit - on Page 226, an excerpt of the prosecution's Exhibit GB 196. It is a standing war order from the Commander-in-Chief U-boats which was also issued before May, 1940. I read the first sentences: "Not to be sunk are:

(a) All ships readily recognized as neutral so long as they do not (1) move in an enemy convoy, (2) move into a declared danger zone."

[Page 320]
The next Document, Donitz 760, Page 227, shows the concern of the Naval War Command that the neutrals should really be recognizable as such. I read the first sentences of the entry of 10th January, 1942:

"In view of the further extension of the war, the Naval War Command has asked the Foreign Office to point out again to the neutral seafaring nations, with the exception of Sweden, the necessity of carefully marking their ships in order that they shall not be mistaken for enemy ships."

The next Document, Donitz 770, on Page 228, is an entry dated 24th June, 1942, from the War Diary of the Flag Officer U-boats:

"All commanders will again be given detailed instructions as to their conduct towards neutrals."

I have already submitted Donitz 178 - excuse me, it has not been submitted. Donitz 78, Page 229, contains examples of the consideration which the Commander-in-Chief U-boats showed to neutrals. The entry Of 23rd November, 1942, shows that a submarine was ordered to leave one area solely because there was a great deal of neutral traffic in that area. The second entry of December, 1942 specifies that a Portuguese naval tanker had to be treated in accordance with directives; in other words, allowed to proceed. On page 230 there is a document which I have already mentioned. It contains an account of court martial proceedings taken against a commanding officer who had torpedoed a neutral by mistake."






That was an excerpt from the Nueremberg trials, a sitting on the 2nd of May to 13th May 1946, quiet interesting really a standing order which as it says above existed before 1940!

So....would have been technically ok to sink the destroyer, however not the merchants.....war crime material that! (If you were to be absolutely realistic in this game that is.....)

[U2222]

Correct.
I stumbled on the Polish destroyer shortly after receiving a message about declaration of war with Poland.
The Polish skipper did'nt waste time trying to shorten my war career.
While I was confident about my rights to take him out, I did'nt want to wait until the end of the patrol to find I was in the brig due to some glitch - should have known better.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

I am not sure,but if they fired first would you be put to a tribunal for defending yourself by attacking the DDs? I mean to me it's an act of war

Edit: Didnt the war start on the 1st of Sept? The english declared war that day too,if I am not mistaken

11 o'clock on the morning of the 3rd of september war was declared due to the none withdrawal of german troops from poland. Chamberlain came on the radio at 11:15 to address the nation. You can find the full 8 minute speech online, in it you can hear the regret and emotion in Chamberlain's voice that we were once again going to commit to war with germany and sacrifice countless lives.

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

11 o'clock on the morning of the 3rd of september war was declared due to the none withdrawal of german troops from poland. Chamberlain came on the radio at 11:15 to address the nation. You can find the full 8 minute speech online, in it you can hear the regret and emotion in Chamberlain's voice that we were once again going to commit to war with germany and sacrifice countless lives.

Chamberlain hated the thought of going to war with Germany again having lost a close relative during the Great War. However, even he realised eventually that Hitler could not be trusted no matter what agreements had been made and signed. The Munich agreement signed in 1938 (peace in our time) really sold Czechoslovakia down the river but it bought Britain more time to re-arm and be prepared for the war that would inevitably come.

Nemo

[von hally]

seems from what i've read...the americans weren't too shy in attacking u-boats before they changed neutral status.....to the victor...the spoils

[Sailor Steve]

The very first convoy of the war was AB 1/1, which departed Gibraltar on September 2, 1939. It was dispersed on September 13.

The answer is yes, they did start running convoys before they declared war.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

Chamberlain hated the thought of going to war with Germany again having lost a close relative during the Great War. However, even he realised eventually that Hitler could not be trusted no matter what agreements had been made and signed. The Munich agreement signed in 1938 (peace in our time) really sold Czechoslovakia down the river but it bought Britain more time to re-arm and be prepared for the war that would inevitably come.

Nemo

People like to label him an idiot for giving into Hitler when infact at the outbreak of the war we were as prepared as we could be. We were pushed onto the back foot by dunkirk and the loss of so much armaments etc but by the time of the first battle of Britain our factories were out producing Germany 2 fold. The German generals, admirals and chiefs of staff said the war came too early for them, before they had in place the technology and forces they wanted, but had they waited their enemies would have also been better equipped to repulse them. Quite a quandary, no?

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The very first convoy of the war was AB 1/1, which departed Gibraltar on September 2, 1939. It was dispersed on September 13.

The answer is yes, they did start running convoys before they declared war.

Thanks for the info on pre-war convoys Sailor Steve.

Nemo

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

People like to label him an idiot for giving into Hitler when infact at the outbreak of the war we were as prepared as we could be. We were pushed onto the back foot by dunkirk and the loss of so much armaments etc but by the time of the first battle of Britain our factories were out producing Germany 2 fold. The German generals, admirals and chiefs of staff said the war came too early for them, before they had in place the technology and forces they wanted, but had they waited their enemies would have also been better equipped to repulse them. Quite a quandary, no?

Chamberlain was no idiot, he wanted a peaceful solution to Europe's problems rather than a world war and he tried very hard to achieve this, but at the same time he realised he had to prepare Britain for war as this was a very distinct possibility given Hitler's track record.

Very difficult to say whether if war had come later Germany would have been better prepared to defeat Britain. From a naval point of view this is probably true, as Germany's navy was way outnumbered by the Royal Navy ship for ship in 1939. Before the war, when Donitz questioned Hitler on the possibility of an imminent war with Britain didn't Hitler reply along the lines of "if we go to war with Britain it will finish Germany"? Well I suppose that's one thing Hitler got right.

Nemo

[Feuer Frei!]

I think that the reasons for the appeasement in 1938 are reasonably clear, ie why Chamberlain ceded to Hitler's demands:


Effects of World War One, Treaty of Versailles, Lack of Allies and Hitler's cleverness all contributed to it,


There were many reasons why Britain 'appeased' Hitler in the 1930s. Historians have ascribed every possible motive to Chamberlain - sheer abject cowardice, that he was duped by Hitler, that it was a noble attempt to prevent bloodshed, that he was buying time for Britain to re-arm... and many others!


The five most important reasons, however, were:

Some British people approved of Hitler's policies.

The British people hoped that a strong Germany would stop the growth of Communist Russia.

Many people felt that events in Europe were not Britain's business.

Many British people wanted peace.

Many British people agreed with Hitler that the Treaty of Versailles was unfair.

I must apologise to Captain Nemo, seems the thread you started with the destroyer depth charging has taken on a different spin now, sorry for getting off-topic?