turning off map updates and tracking targets question

[I'm goin' down]

Have tentatively mastered automatic targeting and manual targeting using the aspect ratio, I was arrogant enough to turn off map updates as I confidently adjust the settings for my next mission to 50% realism. Off Honshu I located a convoy at 60 miles on the map, and moved into position. The problem was the convoy was never updated on the map, and sailed past me at 5,000 yards to starboard. I could not surface to get ahead of it for fear of being spotted. Now for the questions. (1) If map updates are off, how do you track a target outside of radar range. (2) If map updates are off, how do you track a contract once you make contact with the hydrophones or radar?

[Rockin Robbins]

You would have to plot it yourself, using the pencil tool and putting an x on the appropriate spot on the chart. I personally think that turning map updates off is much less realistic than leaving map updates on and using Trigger Maru or TMOplot.

With those two options the only negative you are left with is that targets are positioned exactly on the map. If you are using radar or sonar positions that is not a problem as your plotted positions would be nearly perfect anyway. For visual positions it is overly accurate, but we're stuck with what the game engine feeds us.

Map updates off also deactivates the attack map plotting, making checks of plot against TDC settings impossible. This is another blow to the concept that turning map updates off somehow makes the game more realistic.

[I'm goin' down]

I will leave them on for the reasons explained above.

[joegrundman]

Well that's RRs opinion, and he reasons it well, but i never play with map updates on and will never go back to it. Without map contact updates you are forced to deal with imperfect solutions, and this for me is a far more absorbing and intense way to play.

You can either use your head for tracking target, you can use the PK to track the target for you (and that can be very satisfying), you can mark the target track on the nav map, or on a separate piece of paper and there are a whole host of challenges and techniques that become useful to solve them.

[Beardy Bob Black]

Hey IGD.

I have been sailing the Pacific for a little while now, but am still a novice so take my comments with whatever weight you choose.

I set realism at 90% - it would be 100% but I cant resist using the external camera to watch the fruits of my labours (I love explosions).

You may notice that update map contacts does not affect realism count (I have TMO loaded so this may be incorrect for stock).

I rationalise it this way:

Realistically, I would not be the only crewman on the bridge. Therefore I would have someone constantly updating the map while I did captainly things like shout orders and drink hot tea.

So to have contact updates on is infact MORE realistic!

Besides the map tools are just not up to it - the crosses have to have a timestamp at least for them to be useful.

BTW: Does anyone else find themselves giving orders? My wife caught me the other day telling the computer to open tubes 1 thru 4.

[SteamWake]

They did have pencils on board you know

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

You would have to plot it yourself, using the pencil tool and putting an x on the appropriate spot on the chart. I personally think that turning map updates off is much less realistic than leaving map updates on and using Trigger Maru or TMOplot.

With those two options the only negative you are left with is that targets are positioned exactly on the map. If you are using radar or sonar positions that is not a problem as your plotted positions would be nearly perfect anyway. For visual positions it is overly accurate, but we're stuck with what the game engine feeds us.

Map updates off also deactivates the attack map plotting, making checks of plot against TDC settings impossible. This is another blow to the concept that turning map updates off somehow makes the game more realistic.

If you have time, please expand on this concept a tad more. Why do you find this to be less realistic, and what settings do you find to be the most?

Not at all being contentious. Genuinely curious...

[tale]

Some time ago I already wrote this about "the unrealistic satellite, laser accuracy view of the enemy from the attack map that you get in the stock game wiht map contacts on."

In the stock game with map contacts on you get a perfectly accurate representation of the enemy ships updated in real time, so calculating speed and course is piece of cake. You don't even have to mess with the stadimeter or the recognition book any more, just place two marks on the target 3 minutes apart and you've got its exact course and speed. And you can perform looong distance attacks with the confidence of having perfect data about the targets.

If on the other hand you don't see the targets position in the attack map updated in real time you have to start using the radar (if you have one), the sonar, the recognition book and the stadimeter, all very inaccurate at long distances; and then you can consider lucky or experienced if you hit something further than 2500 yards off.

The bottom line is: map contact updates off is more challenging and at least for me, more fun.

[Fish40]

Originally Posted by tale

Some time ago I already wrote this about "the unrealistic satellite, laser accuracy view of the enemy from the attack map that you get in the stock game wiht map contacts on."

In the stock game with map contacts on you get a perfectly accurate representation of the enemy ships updated in real time, so calculating speed and course is piece of cake. You don't even have to mess with the stadimeter or the recognition book any more, just place two marks on the target 3 minutes apart and you've got its exact course and speed. And you can perform looong distance attacks with the confidence of having perfect data about the targets.

If on the other hand you don't see the targets position in the attack map updated in real time you have to start using the radar (if you have one), the sonar, the recognition book and the stadimeter, all very inaccurate at long distances; and then you can consider lucky or experienced if you hit something further than 2500 yards off.

The bottom line is: map contact updates off is more challenging and at least for me, more fun.

I would have too agree with you! BTW, I enjoyed watching your videos'. I found them helpful

[Rockin Robbins]

There is a way to get a highly refined and accurate representation of a plotting crew working for you without getting too much information: Trigger Maru. Here is why.

In the stock game, your attack map shows a ship silhouette. This tells you exactly what kind of target you have identified. Its color shows you whether it is friendly, neutral or foe. It has a velocity vector tail to show its exact course. And in text beside the silhouette is the ID, course and speed. That's WAY too much information for a radar sighting or a visual sighting on the horizon.

Trigger Maru kills the text. You don't see the ID, that the ship is going NNE at slow speed. Then all contacts are gray. You surely don't know if a target is friend/foe/neutral unless you have identified them first. You cannot because the silhouettes are also nerfed, replaced by a black position dot on your nav map.

So if your radar shows a contact, that's ALL it shows. You must mark its position with an "x" and mark it again at a later time to establish course and speed, just like the real submarines had to do.

Detecting zigs is just as difficult, in this case more difficult than in reality, because a crewman would be assigned full time to track the predicted bearing of a target and when the predicted bearing and actual bearing differed, he would call "zig toward" or "zig away." We're going to be handicapped in that regard because you are a one-man plotting crew here.

See all my instructional videos for illustrations of TMO plotting in use. It is highly evolved and gives the most realistic portrayal of what you in position of captain would be doing on the submarine, without giving you too much information.

Dramatization: Captain is on the bridge when the contact is discovered.

Exec: Cap, we have a target, bearing 249, range 5.5 miles.

Captain: OK, I'm coming down to the control room plotting table to plot it. Dufus, you have the helm for five minutes.

Uh.... every time the contact is updated the captain is going down the ladder, wrecking his night vision to plot the thing himself and analyze the plot? I think he's going to skipper the Admiral's garbage scow when he gets back to Lockwood's office! That's insanely stupid.

There is the argument that the TM plotting system is unrealistic because it plots the exact physical position of a visual sighting. That's hardwired and unavoidable. If you have radar, it is not unrealistic. Radar was the gold standard of position determination: much better than stadimeter. It did give you a precise position. Skippers assumed that their hits would be reduced by at least 50% if they were deprived of their radar. They were right.

So we are left with accepting one easily ignored (just don't use visual sightings' positions as reported in TM with map updates on) problem, vs LOTS of problems, especially attack map useless, with map updates off that make it a ludicrous way to play. Personally, any method that eliminates the ability to check TDC data against the plot on the attack map gets the fail buzzer from me.

Playing with map updates off is like driving with a bag over your head. Challenging, yes! Interesting, yes! Realistic, no!

Here is a screenie of a Dick O'Kane attack with the TM plotting system. See the already identified and tracked target there. From the plot none of that is obvious. It is a radar position. What is unrealistic there? NOTHING! As he advances toward my position, I will continually refine his course and speed until I am satisfied or he is too close for comfort. At that point I will submerge and his position will be fixed by the intersection of established target track and his bearing. That is also totally realistic. When he reaches the shoot bearing, he will be sunk.

[tale]

One may think that playing with the "maps contacts update" on is more realistic than playing with the option off.
You may pretend that some of your crew members are using the identification manual, radar, stadimeter, and plotting the information for you; but then again why not have your crew members make the necessary calculations to perform the attack and make the game even more realistic by having the autotargeting option on.
Then you can be a real captain just giving orders and taking decisions, leaving the technicalities to your crew.

I'm afraid that my ego is too big to share the glory with others, virtual or not. I want to play all the roles: measure, plot, identify, fix, and never sleep. Ah, and don't forget I can travel in time faster than anyone else. It's just me, myself and I

Thanks for the compliments fish40

[Cmdr Fud Pucker]

Even though I changed the config file to read "No Map Contacts Update=true" I still get them! I don't mind (even like!) the dashed sonar lines but the radar and visual icons on the map are too accurate and it's hard to ignore them. Anyone else unable to turn them off?:hmm: