2 campaign questions!

[ivank]

My team and I are making The Royal Navy and Kriegsmarine Mod, Im in charge of the campaign and I have 2 questions.

Can a playable ship refuel at a neutral naval base?

Did German warships dock in Penang enough to add it as a base?

[Raptor1]

Well, according to the 1907 Hague Convention, XIII, Article 18:

"Belligerent war-ships may not make use of neutral ports, roadsteads, or territorial waters for replenishing or increasing their supplies of war material or their armament, or for completing their crews."

So no refuelling and rearming in Neutral ports

As for Penang, I don't believe any other WWII German warship ever docked there (Except for submarines, that is), I could be wrong though

[ivank]

but what about the Admiral Graf Spee? it didn't refuel in Montevideo?

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by ivank

but what about the Admiral Graf Spee? it didn't refuel in Montevideo?

Not that I know of. As far as I recall, the Graf Spee's onboard refinery was damaged, or inoperative, so a refuel wasn't much use.

[Raptor1]

Not as far as I know, it just docked at Montevideo to effect repairs (Though the harbor could only assist with keeping the ship afloat, not repairing it's armament or armor) and then scuttled at the face of the imaginary British fleet waiting for it

EDIT: Ah, you beat me to it

Yes, the Graf Spee did have a problem with it's fuel seperating facilities due to one of Exeter's 8" shells, but it wouldn't have been allowed to refuel even if it wasn't damaged

[Nisgeis]

Yeah, forgot to actually say that she wasn't allowed to re-fuel. Thanks for clarifying. The rules are quite strict, you can only dock for 24 hours, or you risk having the ship interned, unless you can argue that the ship isn't seaworthy enough to leave port, e.g. hole in the hull at or below waterline or rudder steering not working or whatever. The Graf Spee was kept in port by the British dispatching a ship from port every 24 hours and under international law, a hostile ship could not leave port until 24 hours afterwards. The ships leaving port effectively stopped the Graf Spee leaving.

Although not allowed, some countries would turn a blind eye to what they knew was going on, or it was succesfully concealed.

[ivank]

okay so if in my mod a german warships was to enter a neutral port would they be attacked?

[Nisgeis]

They shouldn't be attacked.

[ivank]

ok thanks!

[Raptor1]

Shame SH4 can't model the fact that if you stay in a neutral port too long your ship and crew will get interned

[ivank]

that really happened? I love ww2 and half studied it for a long time, its amazing that Im still learning things

[Task Force]

Could the british and american ships do this.:hmm: Dock in a netural port.

[Raptor1]

I don't a ship was ever interned during WWII because of international law, but I'm pretty sure that's what would have happened should a ship stayed in a neutral port after the 24-hour time limit imposed by the Hague Convention

Oh, British and American ships are under the same restrictions as the Germans

[Nisgeis]

Sounds interesting - What was it about international law that meant it didn't happen? I can't recall of any warships that were interned, but I have (I think) read of merchant ships being interned in World War II. In World War I, a number of German merchant ships were internded, including their fastest passenger liner, in the U.S. When the U.S. entered the war, they requisitioned those ships and used them as troop transports and supply vessels. Some of the ships had been rigged with scuttling charges in anticipation of seizure (the crew are either allowed to remain onboard, or be interned on land), but were found and removed before seizure.

The likelihood of a country entereing the war at some future point and the likelihood of of being on your side if they did, were factors in deciding whether or not to allow a ship to be interned or scuttled - two options that were a last resort. If the Graf Spee had of been interned, it may have been used by the Allies, as Uruguay entered the war on February 15th 1945. If the expense of repair had been deemed cost effective. No country is truly neutral .

[Raptor1]

If the Graf Spee would've been interned, you can be sure the Germans would try as hard as they could to get it back diplomatically, failing that they might've sent one of her sister ships and used some gunboat diplomacy

Captain Langsdorff instead chose to scuttle, a decision that probably saved his ship from being annihilated by the British ships (Even though most of what he was lead to believe was waiting wasn't there) and Uruguay a lot of problems

Oh, and I don't think the 24-hour limit imposed by the Hague Convention applies to unarmed Merchant ships