[TEC] How much was radar affected by bad weather?

LukeFF · 08-26-07, 04:25 AM

I see this line in Sensors.cfg and it has me curious:

Quote:

Radar fog factor=0

By upping that number we can simulate the unreliability of early radar systems in bad weather, but how high would be a realistic value? In addition, would tweaking this value affect only the player's sub, or would it affect AI units as well?

08-26-07, 01:41 PM

Frankly, I think radar isnt simulated at all in SH-4, or any naval sim for that matter.
Not even in games like 688i.
(I used to be a fisherman, and I always loved working with radar.)

There is so much more to radar then just a simple 'sweep' and a 'bleep'.

Al we get is a blank screen, apart from the radar sweep and the contact-blips.

But to answer your question, sea-clutter. That and the pitching and rolling of the ship. though of the two, sea clutter has the biggest impact. In real life you can decrease the gain to reduce the clutter, but less gain means less signal return, with the risk of small contacts not showing up on screen.

Now mind you, if you operate a radar at sea, you will ALWAYS have some sea clutter. But, obviously, the heavier the sea the more clutter you get. It's alway a trade of between gain and clutter.

Rain you dont have to worry about, a dont think they used a radar with a small enough wave length to pick up radar, or at least to pick up so much rain for it to become a problem.

But seeing as none of this is actually simulated in silent hunter I doubt anyone can mod the radar enough to get some weather effects.

P.s., can anyone do anything about the size of the contacts?
Right now even a small tramp freighter will show with an echo the size of a small island.

donut · 08-26-07, 02:13 PM

See this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=558172&postcount=206 My latest WIP - noise effect

06-05-2007, 08:08 PM Mraah ,Some nice masks w/range rings

LukeFF · 08-26-07, 05:41 PM

Bulleye, you're right. The way radar is modeled right now depicts doppler radar, which only picks up moving objects; pulse radar, which gives a return on both stationary and moving objects, was the standard during the war.

Now, the reason I ask about fog affecting radar is this page I found at hnsa.org:

Quote:

FACTORS AFFECTING RADAR RANGE

Maximum range factors. In order to give you some reason for the variation in range performance of radar sets, we shall list the factors affecting the maximum range of any radar:
1. Wave length.
a. Long wave length radar is best suited for air search.
b. Micro wave length radar is best suited for surface search.
2. Size of target.
3. Height of target.
a. Height of mast for surface target.
b. Height of plane for air target.
4. Target presentation (target angle).
5. Material of target.
6. Height of antenna.
7. Output power radar.
8. Sensitivity of receiver.
9. Atmospheric condition.
10. Type of indicator ("A" scope most sensitive).
11. Pulse repetition rate (determines maximum range scale that can be used).
12. Beam concentration.
13. Condition of radar equipment.
14. Operator's technique and skill.

Of interest is item 9. Is fog considered an "atmospheric condition" that can affect the range and reliability of pulse radar?

Here is another comment from that manual:

Quote:

Remember that for all practical purposes radar is not affected by visual limitations. It can detect equally well through darkness and smoke, and almost as well through fog. (empahsis added)

I think I'm going to try a value of 0.2 and see how that affects things.

tater · 08-26-07, 05:49 PM

Is fog in game tied to weather?

Meaning does it only appear in high wind states or otherwise stormy conditions?

tater

LukeFF · 08-26-07, 05:52 PM

I think it only shows up in stormy conditions. Shame, because it'd be neat to try to navigate and detect ships in calm, yet foggy seas.

louist · 08-28-07, 01:12 PM

Great thread. I have never made it past mid war, but feel somewhat that using the radar is cheating, as it gives such accurate range and bearing information, without any Japanese equivalent. I imagined that such early radars would be far less reliable and nearly useless when the targets were near land, etc. There should be numerous false/spurious images and blobs where there is land . . . . Wish there were some way to model it, I guess I will stop using the scopes personally and wait for the radar operator to make their occasional report.

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08-26-07, 01:41 PM	#2
Bulleye Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Frankly, I think radar isnt simulated at all in SH-4, or any naval sim for that matter. Not even in games like 688i. (I used to be a fisherman, and I always loved working with radar.) There is so much more to radar then just a simple 'sweep' and a 'bleep'. Al we get is a blank screen, apart from the radar sweep and the contact-blips. But to answer your question, sea-clutter. That and the pitching and rolling of the ship. though of the two, sea clutter has the biggest impact. In real life you can decrease the gain to reduce the clutter, but less gain means less signal return, with the risk of small contacts not showing up on screen. Now mind you, if you operate a radar at sea, you will ALWAYS have some sea clutter. But, obviously, the heavier the sea the more clutter you get. It's alway a trade of between gain and clutter. Rain you dont have to worry about, a dont think they used a radar with a small enough wave length to pick up radar, or at least to pick up so much rain for it to become a problem. But seeing as none of this is actually simulated in silent hunter I doubt anyone can mod the radar enough to get some weather effects. P.s., can anyone do anything about the size of the contacts? Right now even a small tramp freighter will show with an echo the size of a small island.

08-26-07, 02:13 PM	#3
donut The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The Shifting, Whispering Sands, NM Posts: 1,463 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	See this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=558172&postcount=206 My latest WIP - noise effect 06-05-2007, 08:08 PM Mraah ,Some nice masks w/range rings

08-26-07, 05:49 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Is fog in game tied to weather? Meaning does it only appear in high wind states or otherwise stormy conditions? tater

08-26-07, 05:52 PM	#6
LukeFF Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 3,610 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 5	I think it only shows up in stormy conditions. Shame, because it'd be neat to try to navigate and detect ships in calm, yet foggy seas.

08-28-07, 01:12 PM	#7
louist Swabbie Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 5 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Great thread. I have never made it past mid war, but feel somewhat that using the radar is cheating, as it gives such accurate range and bearing information, without any Japanese equivalent. I imagined that such early radars would be far less reliable and nearly useless when the targets were near land, etc. There should be numerous false/spurious images and blobs where there is land . . . . Wish there were some way to model it, I guess I will stop using the scopes personally and wait for the radar operator to make their occasional report.