Poland vs. Germany

[dean_acheson]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23401261-details/We'd+have+more+power+in+EU+if+Germans+hadn't+'redu ced+our+population'+in+World+War+II%2C+says+Polish +PM/article.do

whoa! Hows this for PC?

[bradclark1]

Germany is trying to get volunteers to go to Poland and be Polish so that they can give back.

[AntEater]

What did you expect from the idiot twins?
One of the two still lives with his mother at 50 something, but I am not sure wether it is this one or the other.
They simply have a pathological hatred for everything german.
For my part, I think we should reconsider our policies towards Poland. It has no use to extend the hand in friendship and get spit in the face in return.
At least until the poles vote these morons out of office, that is.
Official Poland nowadays tries very hard to beat the muslim world in being insulted by just about everything.

[Skybird]

These two twins surely are human carricatures, and the ammount of nationalism they try to stir amongst Polish people should not be underestimated. However, during the last election only less than 30% participated, so one should not assume that they are too representative for their people. In no way they are representing a majority. Maybe not more than 20%. On a private, inter-human level, relations between Polish and Germans for the most are good, when ignoring that ultranationalistic parts of the Polish press did not hesitate to compare Merkel with Hitler, or Germany and Russia planning to crush Poland again, amongst other "jokes".

This argument about compensation for WWII is totally crap and nonsens, and makes me telling them they should not go to a summit, but seek therapy to learn how to come over the fate of their parents during WWII. Every sympathy for personal experiences has limits, and they are seriously stressing diplomatic relations to Germany. If two men's broken psyche is translated into a whole natiopn'S policy, than this is doing bad for that nation only, and for all others it is unacceptable, and a huge problem.

While I am no fan of the twins, they nevertheless could serve Europe a good service if bringing down this damn treaty paper altogether, same is true of Blair. I really hope this treaty get's prevented, there are so many issues in it that I do not accept at all and that are highly questionable, that I think no treaty is much better than this very bad and dangerous treaty.

And finally, although their arguments are silly and stupid, the twin's attempt to weaken the influence of nations with great populations and strengthen the smaller ones may come out to be of value if eventually Turkey should become an EU member, because then Turkey wouldn't have so very much influence (being the nation with the by far greatest population in the EU). Best would be if Turkey doesn't join at all, of course.

So I really hope this damn treaty fails. Not by conviction, but for pure pragmatism I support both Blair and the twins. Call it "Realpolitik" and pragmatism. The earlier this farce is ended, the better. The age of feudal lords and absolutism, where people only have the freedom to follow the leader's commands, are over. Even Merkel must accept that the constitution was rejected by two important nations. Trying to call it back to life with it's core proposals unchanged reveals a very criminal interpretation of "democracy" and "all power comes from the people". You can't repeat votings, or referendums, or decision processes as often as you need until you get the outcome you want to see, and call that "democratic". And if it is said that the grown Europe needs reforms to function on, then one must question why one even did allow it to grow to a club of 27 now. It was difficult enough with 6, it already was almost impossible with 15 members - 27 member means that it will not be functioning in a democartic manner anyway. such a choire can only sing in harmony if a superior conductor puts it under according pressure. There is a reason why all "functioning" multicultural societies in history - were no democracies, but tyrannies with strong centralised, absolutistic powers, from Rome over Austria to the Soviet Union to Yugoslawia. when the central powers failed and faded, the thing broke apart again and the ethnical and cultural diversities turned hostile again.

Multiculturalism does not work with freedom and democracy.

Merkel makes compromises. Many compromises, much of them. Far too many, if judging it by innerpolitical events. The great coalition is aiming at setting a new record concenring producing foul compromises. She did like that in Heiligendamm, and tried to sell that at home as great diplomatic successes. She will try endless compromises in the EU negotations, too. considerign that sometimes the price is simply too high, I am nervous about the outcome of this meeting. I hope that Blair and or the polish twins let it collapse.

[AntEater]

I am not a great fan of the new EU treaty either, but that issue transcends realpolitik

The twin morons are fanatics, and their prime agenda is not some EU politics, but rather weakening Germany.
You can't make realpolitik with mindless fanatics and those two have no further agenda than to hurt Germany wherever they can.
At least they're too weak to do any real damage.
There's no political agenda behind them burt simple raw hatred for Germany, that means in the long term, for you and me. We can do whatever we want, Skybird, in the long term, for those people we're just the enemy, and so they should be for us.
Israel wouldnt do short-term alliances with the Hamas either, whatever the long term benefit.

You see that on many levels. The current govermnent bans Goethe and even Grass (who's definitely pro polish) from schools and replaces them with nationalist literature. They stop german-polish youth exchanges.
Simply put, they want to breed hate for anything german in the younger generation.

The only good thing is that only a minority of the younger poles seem to share that agenda.
Personally I know a bunch of poles and I never had any problems with them.
I suppose this is a generation problem and will solve itself in time. But until that, Germany should adopt a harsh stance against Poland wherever possible.

I see the EU as a great free trade zone. I'm not sure why all the trappings of gov't is needed.? Is there something broken?

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I see the EU as a great free trade zone. I'm not sure why all the trappings of gov't is needed.? Is there something broken?

And you think if you take away the government your favorite communists or my favorite ultra-nationalists will sit idly by? Europe's full of 'em :hmm:

[joea]

You know as I've said elsewhere, if the 2 world wars had not happened, ALL of Europe would have had a bigger population and been richer far sooner than what happened. The EU as we know it might not have existed.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by CCIP

And you think if you take away the government your favorite communists or my favorite ultra-nationalists will sit idly by? Europe's full of 'em :hmm:

I guess I don't understand. I thought Europe was made up of many countries each with its own democratically elected governments. Why is it necessary to impose an umbrella gov't over those that already exist? BTW wasn't this idea rejected by the electorates of two countries already? Why would someone try to circumvent the will of the people by changing the name from 'constitution' to 'treaty' unless some type of power grab was in progress?

[Skybird]

AntEater,

to compare the Polish-German relations with the Israelis' relations to Hamas is a bit too much, don't you think?

Let'S see if the twins will get elected again next time. If so - then it is early enough to confront the Polish and hold them responsible for their voting, because then it is a repitition of what in the first vote maybe was just an experiment for many. Until then, Germany should have the sovereignity to simply sit them out without provoking them and feeding their ressentiments. Last but not least, the twins cost the Polish many sympathies throughout Europe, and right now almost all states already shake their heads about them. In the main - they are damaging Poland, not Germany. If the Polish are happy with this - fine with me.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

You know as I've said elsewhere, if the 2 world wars had not happened, ALL of Europe would have had a bigger population and been richer far sooner than what happened. The EU as we know it might not have existed.

They also did not mention compensation from Russia for being occupied and economically ruined by the Soviet Union. The EU itself at least has seen three different phases so far, each giving it a very different face. And the idea behind the first one was - by far - the best and most realistic one.

[Hitman]

I guess I don't understand. I thought Europe was made up of many countries each with its own democratically elected governments. Why is it necessary to impose an umbrella gov't over those that already exist?

Errr well I thought the United States was made up of many states each with its own democratically elected governments. Why is it necessary to impose an umbrella gov't over those that already exist?

Probably the answer is more or less the same....at a certain point it was felt that being bigger and more powerful was better...and someone had to organize that. Yet of course with the USA it was way easier, due to many historical and cultural reasons (And even so a civil war happened :hmm: )


Back to the topic: Poland is certainly one the nations who has had it more difficult in history: Being between the germans and the russians was really no pleasing situation in the past. But what the linked article says is plain and simply ridiculous. Hopefully, as Skybird says, these guys are not really representative of the polish people

[AntEater]

If it is up to the twins and their coalition partners, relations would be similar than Israel and the Arabs.
I first realized that by looking at any polish-german related article in the english wikipedia.
There's a polish national myth that from the beginning of time, germans had nothing more in mind than to enslave and eliminate the poles.
Similarly as the Arabs tend to blame Israel and the Jews for every misfortune, the polish Ultranationalists blame the Germans
A bit like Agrijak in "Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy", the being which is killed by Arthur Dent every time.

I still hope they do not represent the majority of the polish people, and poles I know tend to have the same views on their government than I have.
But for now it is a fact that our eastern neighbour is ruled by a government openly hostile to germany for racist reasons.

Originally Posted by Hitman

Errr well I thought the United States was made up of many states each with its own democratically elected governments. Why is it necessary to impose an umbrella gov't over those that already exist?

Probably the answer is more or less the same....at a certain point it was felt that being bigger and more powerful was better...and someone had to organize that. Yet of course with the USA it was way easier, due to many historical and cultural reasons (And even so a civil war happened :hmm: )


Back to the topic: Poland is certainly one the nations who has had it more difficult in history: Being between the germans and the russians was really no pleasing situation in the past. But what the linked article says is plain and simply ridiculous. Hopefully, as Skybird says, these guys are not really representative of the polish people

Thanks Hitman. But don't European nations also have states/provinces/cantons/autonomous communities etc? Just seems like an extra umbrella gov't which is unnecessary and allows one set of countries to be in charge of another set. Seems to be an attempt to remove the governed from the process of government. Which ain't very democratic. I may have to side with the Poles and Brits on this one.