A positive perspective

TDK1044 · 03-30-07, 04:51 PM

I just wanted to post this thread in the hope that some members may calm down a little and just think things through.

I see comments like "they've had two years to make this game work" and "this game is unplayable" and suggestions that the Devs "went through the motions with this game".

So I'd like to point out a few things.

1) They didn't have two years to build this game. Silent Hunter 3 was released in March 2005. The sales for that game were then assessed over the following 6 months, and I believe Silent Hunter 4 got the official green light in September 2005. That gave the Devs about 18 months to build Silent Hunter 4, not 24 months. Big difference.

2) They were in effect asked to build a hybrid that was part sim and part game. Ubisoft made it very clear to them that Silent Hunter 4 had to attract the casual gamer in large numbers, something that didn't happen enough with SH3, as well as make a sim to satisfy the existing hard core sub simmer.

Just think about that last point, Guys. You have 18 months to build a new game using an existing game engine that you know has problems, and you have to create a game set in a different theater of operations which also offers significant graphical improvements over Silent Hunter 3. Oh, and by the way, you also have to add a lot of new elements to the game, such as active crews on the decks of ships reacting correctly to real time events, and life boats in the water allowing the game to give the player the ability to rescue the occupants.

I'm not in any way judging those of you who are expressing their disappointment with Silent Hunter 4, Guys, I understand your frustration. I just want you to think about just how difficult it would be to achieve what I've mentioned above plus a lot more in 18 months.

Companies like Ubisoft care about two things: How much money will this game make for us? How little money do we need to spend in order to achieve how much money this game will make for us?

The schedule for the release of this game was unrealistic from day one, and that's why we now need the additional patches that the Devs are currently working their asses off to give us. Not exactly the actions of people who don't care.

I applaud Dan and his team for their dedication and the many long, long days that they put into building this game, and I thank them for listening to and incorporating many of the ideas suggested in this Forum. If they are allowed to continue patching beyond 1.2, then between the additional patches and the awesome modding we'll have a great game a few months down the line.

Oh, and for those few of you who think that a Moderator shouldn't be making a post like this ...."Get over it"!

Faamecanic · 03-30-07, 05:02 PM

While some of my posts the past few weeks have been a bit negative (ok a lot negative), its merely out out frustration and disappointment.

Good post TDK... even in my posts I have made it clear that we shouldnt blame the devs. They have done a fantastic job with the time and money constraints imposed on them by Ubisoft.

Im sure given the opportunity, the devs would love to have released SH4 with all the toys (and maybe even more toys that havent been included) working. Its what they do and what they love.

Its just sad that Ubi did not let these passionate, hard working devs SHINE

with SH3 by fixing everything that was broke in that release. And Im afraid they will not have the time or money to really make SH4 as great as it can be. Its not by thier choice, but by the neccessity of business.

With that said...I still love SH3, especialy after GWX. Im sure SH4 will be even greater.

codmander · 03-31-07, 09:08 AM

LoL sh4 was a year of waiting and wondering to have -not much deleivered? hmm What concerns me if sh4 isn't any good and has no hope the leaders of this community need to say so!!! Dont be in it for the allmighty $$$$ kinda urks me some

To push for sales when they know the game is crap 50$ is a lot of money!! for a game thats incomplete along with less imersion than sh3 eye candy has improved from what I see but gameplay?? sorry but sh4 will be shelved in a couple of months time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

While some of my posts the past few weeks have been a bit negative (ok a lot negative), its merely out out frustration and disappointment.

Good post TDK... even in my posts I have made it clear that we shouldnt blame the devs. They have done a fantastic job with the time and money constraints imposed on them by Ubisoft.

Im sure given the opportunity, the devs would love to have released SH4 with all the toys (and maybe even more toys that havent been included) working. Its what they do and what they love.

Its just sad that Ubi did not let these passionate, hard working devs SHINE

with SH3 by fixing everything that was broke in that release. And Im afraid they will not have the time or money to really make SH4 as great as it can be. Its not by thier choice, but by the neccessity of business.

With that said...I still love SH3, especialy after GWX. Im sure SH4 will be even greater.

fredbass · 03-31-07, 09:33 AM

I think it's important to remember that the devs made a strong effort to get us that first patch at nearly the same time that it was released in hopes of alleviating most of those initial problems and subsequent complaints that the game had when it first came out, though it still needs more help, of course.

mookiemookie · 03-31-07, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codmander

for a game thats incomplete along with less imersion than sh3 eye candy has improved from what I see but gameplay??

Yeah, you enjoy patrolling Grid DE98 for 24 hours over and over while I get to wonder if I'll be sent to the Luzon Strait or halfway through be redeployed to the Celebes sea, or If I'll be taking recon photos or...etc, etc.

I'm having a great time.

Faamecanic · 03-31-07, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Quote:

Originally Posted by codmander

for a game thats incomplete along with less imersion than sh3 eye candy has improved from what I see but gameplay??

Yeah, you enjoy patrolling Grid DE98 for 24 hours over and over while I get to wonder if I'll be sent to the Luzon Strait or halfway through be redeployed to the Celebes sea, or If I'll be taking recon photos or...etc, etc.

I'm having a great time.

Hummm.. Im on patrol 6, and for the 6th time Im sent to patrol off the South of Honshu. I did notice my little Star Marker went to an area 50 mi east of my last one... This is getting really old...

TDK1044 · 03-31-07, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codmander

LoL sh4 was a year of waiting and wondering to have -not much deleivered? hmm What concerns me if sh4 isn't any good and has no hope the leaders of this community need to say so!!! Dont be in it for the allmighty $$$$ kinda urks me some

To push for sales when they know the game is crap 50$ is a lot of money!! for a game thats incomplete along with less imersion than sh3 eye candy has improved from what I see but gameplay?? sorry but sh4 will be shelved in a couple of months time

The approximately 97 percent of people purchasing Silent Hunter 4 who are not members of a subsim Forum will have an entirely different approach to this game.

They will set 'Realism' somewhere between 0 and 30, and they will then sail off looking for ships to sink and people to rescue from life boats. As long as they find ships to sink and people to rescue, they'll be perfectly happy with this game. The eye candy will impress them and they'll have a blast with SH4.

Most of these folks know nothing about patches or mods, and most of them will never even apply patch 1.1 because they don't know it exists, and they'll still be happy with the game because they don't know there's anything wrong with it. That may frustrate some people here, but it's the truth and Ubisoft knows it.

We, as the 3 percent market share, are useful to the Devs because we give them much needed technical feedback and we are therefore a very demanding customer to please. And so we should be, because to most of us Silent Hunter 4 isn't just another game, it's a rare PC subsim in a world dominated by console 'shoot em ups'.

But understand this and understand it well, we are of little relevance to Ubisoft corporate. The suits at Ubisoft are going to be looking at the number of sales for this game and that's it. If the game does well with the 'blisfully unaware' who represent the lions share of sales then we might just get a shot at Silent Hunter 5.

My biggest concern is not any of the bug related issues, it's the poor quality of the user manual which pre supposes that you came to this game with knowledge of SH3. If the 'blisfully unaware' can't work out how to get full enjoyment out of this game because the user manual fails to give them vital details such as how to click on the compass to access the rudder settings, then we have a problem.

So let's hope that lots of people out there buy and enjoy this game so that we have hope of another sub sim in the future.

fredbass · 03-30-07, 05:05 PM

Good post. You are correct.

It's important to remind folks that the people who actually make the game are not always the ones responsible for it's errors and omissions at the time of release.

Bahger · 03-30-07, 05:05 PM

Very eloquent, TDK, my hat is tipped in your direction, or at least it would be if I wore one.

The problem with sophisticated systems simulations is that the demand for fidelity is very, very high and the hardcore clientele very knowledgeable. In the world of flight sims, there will be much distress over a malfunctioning radar sub-mode in FALCON: ALLIED FORCE when in less detailed sims that mode won't even be modelled and its absence will therefore go unnoticed.

SHIV is my first sub sim since SUB COMMANDER and 688i before that. I come from the world of hi-fi combat flight/racing sim geekery and I am only interested in SHIV if manual targeting works as advertised. Therefore I'm not going to play it until the TDC and PK is fixed. However, it will remain on my HD for the next few months as I have almost as much faith in the SHIV devs as I have in the FALCON ALLIED FORCE devs, a very high compliment indeed and one that I hope turns out to be justified.

WFGood · 03-30-07, 05:49 PM

Excellent post. We need more of them. If more people took an objective look at the game and all of the wonderful features and improvements instead of focusing on each and every little thing that is wrong (or not exactly the way they wanted it), then I am sure they would find it a fantastic experience. I have been trying to make the same point in my own subtle way, but I think you have expressed it much better and to the point.

macky · 03-30-07, 05:57 PM

a moderator shouldnt make a post like.... j/k :p

I am not posting too negative I dont think. Yes I agree with some that this should never have seen the light of day till...etc etc... but I do believe that we must constructively criticise (if you criticise can it really be constructive?).

I also believe we cannot accept when things like this happen because of deadlines, otherwise we will never see a playable game again!

What we do need is more magazine/media articles really shooting down these people so they either shape up or ship out.

That said, SH4 has so much potential it is worth waiting for the fixes, still annoying tho that we had to pay for...no...not here

TDK1044 · 03-30-07, 06:46 PM

I agree with your point about constructive criticism, macky. It's very important to have that element in a Forum like this. There are some really smart, knowledgeable members here and they put forward some compelling arguments.

My point really is that we need to keep things in perspective, and we need to keep the glass half full. Once I'd posted, I was rooting around to try and find any info to point me at a more precise start date for SH4. And look what I found!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=87428

They were advertising for programmers on 12/16/2005. So in terms of hands on programming time we're down to maybe 14 months!

The Devs should be saluted for what they've achieved with Silent Hunter 4 in 14 months. I don't have a problem with members being frustrated with the bugs...I'm frustrated with the bugs, but my admiration for this Dev team is huge.

Kapitan_Phillips · 03-30-07, 07:04 PM

Excellent post, TDK. However I think it should be emphasised that the devs were working with a truly cruddy deadline. All thanks to their most esteemed publishers. Just imagine what they could do given more time.

Zengaze · 03-30-07, 07:29 PM

I can only echo the sentiments expressed so far in this thread, especially point out that we simmers are probably the most demanding types around we not only need a good game we need a perfect game, (which may i state i believe we are entitled to). But i do believe we got fall in behind devs who make games for our genre, "lend a hand to the wheel" as it is said.

Jace11 · 03-30-07, 08:06 PM

Its still a rubbish effort though...

Your comments are just excuses, the product that people have paid for is SUB-STANDARD not a SUB-SIM.

People have been lied to, cheated and let-down, they are disappointed and are rightly aggreived, get over it...

03-30-07, 04:51 PM	#1
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	A positive perspective I just wanted to post this thread in the hope that some members may calm down a little and just think things through. I see comments like "they've had two years to make this game work" and "this game is unplayable" and suggestions that the Devs "went through the motions with this game". So I'd like to point out a few things. 1) They didn't have two years to build this game. Silent Hunter 3 was released in March 2005. The sales for that game were then assessed over the following 6 months, and I believe Silent Hunter 4 got the official green light in September 2005. That gave the Devs about 18 months to build Silent Hunter 4, not 24 months. Big difference. 2) They were in effect asked to build a hybrid that was part sim and part game. Ubisoft made it very clear to them that Silent Hunter 4 had to attract the casual gamer in large numbers, something that didn't happen enough with SH3, as well as make a sim to satisfy the existing hard core sub simmer. Just think about that last point, Guys. You have 18 months to build a new game using an existing game engine that you know has problems, and you have to create a game set in a different theater of operations which also offers significant graphical improvements over Silent Hunter 3. Oh, and by the way, you also have to add a lot of new elements to the game, such as active crews on the decks of ships reacting correctly to real time events, and life boats in the water allowing the game to give the player the ability to rescue the occupants. I'm not in any way judging those of you who are expressing their disappointment with Silent Hunter 4, Guys, I understand your frustration. I just want you to think about just how difficult it would be to achieve what I've mentioned above plus a lot more in 18 months. Companies like Ubisoft care about two things: How much money will this game make for us? How little money do we need to spend in order to achieve how much money this game will make for us? The schedule for the release of this game was unrealistic from day one, and that's why we now need the additional patches that the Devs are currently working their asses off to give us. Not exactly the actions of people who don't care. I applaud Dan and his team for their dedication and the many long, long days that they put into building this game, and I thank them for listening to and incorporating many of the ideas suggested in this Forum. If they are allowed to continue patching beyond 1.2, then between the additional patches and the awesome modding we'll have a great game a few months down the line. Oh, and for those few of you who think that a Moderator shouldn't be making a post like this ...."Get over it"!

03-31-07, 09:33 AM	#4
fredbass Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Port Richey, Fl, USA Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I think it's important to remember that the devs made a strong effort to get us that first patch at nearly the same time that it was released in hopes of alleviating most of those initial problems and subsequent complaints that the game had when it first came out, though it still needs more help, of course. __________________

03-30-07, 05:05 PM	#8
fredbass Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Port Richey, Fl, USA Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Good post. You are correct. It's important to remind folks that the people who actually make the game are not always the ones responsible for it's errors and omissions at the time of release. __________________

03-30-07, 05:49 PM	#10
WFGood Electrician's Mate Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: high above the big blue Posts: 137 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Excellent post. We need more of them. If more people took an objective look at the game and all of the wonderful features and improvements instead of focusing on each and every little thing that is wrong (or not exactly the way they wanted it), then I am sure they would find it a fantastic experience. I have been trying to make the same point in my own subtle way, but I think you have expressed it much better and to the point. __________________

03-30-07, 07:04 PM	#13
Kapitan_Phillips Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Swansea Posts: 3,903 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	Excellent post, TDK. However I think it should be emphasised that the devs were working with a truly cruddy deadline. All thanks to their most esteemed publishers. Just imagine what they could do given more time. __________________ Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into.

03-30-07, 05:02 PM	#2
Faamecanic Ace of the Deep Join Date: May 2005 Location: Off your Stb side with good solution Posts: 1,065 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	While some of my posts the past few weeks have been a bit negative (ok a lot negative), its merely out out frustration and disappointment. Good post TDK... even in my posts I have made it clear that we shouldnt blame the devs. They have done a fantastic job with the time and money constraints imposed on them by Ubisoft. Im sure given the opportunity, the devs would love to have released SH4 with all the toys (and maybe even more toys that havent been included) working. Its what they do and what they love. Its just sad that Ubi did not let these passionate, hard working devs SHINE with SH3 by fixing everything that was broke in that release. And Im afraid they will not have the time or money to really make SH4 as great as it can be. Its not by thier choice, but by the neccessity of business. With that said...I still love SH3, especialy after GWX. Im sure SH4 will be even greater.

03-30-07, 05:05 PM	#9
Bahger Watch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 27 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Very eloquent, TDK, my hat is tipped in your direction, or at least it would be if I wore one. The problem with sophisticated systems simulations is that the demand for fidelity is very, very high and the hardcore clientele very knowledgeable. In the world of flight sims, there will be much distress over a malfunctioning radar sub-mode in FALCON: ALLIED FORCE when in less detailed sims that mode won't even be modelled and its absence will therefore go unnoticed. SHIV is my first sub sim since SUB COMMANDER and 688i before that. I come from the world of hi-fi combat flight/racing sim geekery and I am only interested in SHIV if manual targeting works as advertised. Therefore I'm not going to play it until the TDC and PK is fixed. However, it will remain on my HD for the next few months as I have almost as much faith in the SHIV devs as I have in the FALCON ALLIED FORCE devs, a very high compliment indeed and one that I hope turns out to be justified.

03-30-07, 05:57 PM	#11
macky Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 129 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	a moderator shouldnt make a post like.... j/k :p I am not posting too negative I dont think. Yes I agree with some that this should never have seen the light of day till...etc etc... but I do believe that we must constructively criticise (if you criticise can it really be constructive?). I also believe we cannot accept when things like this happen because of deadlines, otherwise we will never see a playable game again! What we do need is more magazine/media articles really shooting down these people so they either shape up or ship out. That said, SH4 has so much potential it is worth waiting for the fixes, still annoying tho that we had to pay for...no...not here

03-30-07, 06:46 PM	#12
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I agree with your point about constructive criticism, macky. It's very important to have that element in a Forum like this. There are some really smart, knowledgeable members here and they put forward some compelling arguments. My point really is that we need to keep things in perspective, and we need to keep the glass half full. Once I'd posted, I was rooting around to try and find any info to point me at a more precise start date for SH4. And look what I found! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=87428 They were advertising for programmers on 12/16/2005. So in terms of hands on programming time we're down to maybe 14 months! The Devs should be saluted for what they've achieved with Silent Hunter 4 in 14 months. I don't have a problem with members being frustrated with the bugs...I'm frustrated with the bugs, but my admiration for this Dev team is huge.

03-30-07, 07:29 PM	#14
Zengaze Watch Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: N.Ireland Posts: 20 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I can only echo the sentiments expressed so far in this thread, especially point out that we simmers are probably the most demanding types around we not only need a good game we need a perfect game, (which may i state i believe we are entitled to). But i do believe we got fall in behind devs who make games for our genre, "lend a hand to the wheel" as it is said.

03-30-07, 08:06 PM	#15
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	Its still a rubbish effort though... Your comments are just excuses, the product that people have paid for is SUB-STANDARD not a SUB-SIM. People have been lied to, cheated and let-down, they are disappointed and are rightly aggreived, get over it...

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