Why I Love my VII (or, Take That IX Crowd!)

[fatty]

• Strategy, strategy, strategy. You must constantly be concerned about logistics; fuel consumption, speed, distance from base, etc.
• This baby is slim and turns on a dime.
• Real men do it in convoys!
• Limited torpedos means you must really make your shots count. You also have to think carefully about which ships to shoot at.
• It's the sexiest-looking of all the u-boats.
• Less fuel means shorter patrols so we can be home in time for tea

[Morts]

Originally Posted by fatty

• Less fuel means shorter patrols so we can be home in time for tea

TRAITOR..kaleuns dont drink tea
we drink Beer ! :rotfl:

oh yea
VII ROCKS !!!

[mookiemookie]

And now, a good natured rebuttal from a Type IX fan

Originally Posted by fatty

• Strategy, strategy, strategy. You must constantly be concerned about logistics; fuel consumption, speed, distance from base, etc

And all of those things, the Type IX has you beat. More fuel, more speed, farther away from base. Besides, we Type IX captains worry about the same things. Only instead of "Can I make it to Rockall, patrol for 2 weeks and make it back?" We think things like "Can I make it to Florida, patrol 2 weeks and make it back?"

Originally Posted by fatty

• This baby is slim and turns on a dime.

I don't really follow...Why is this a big benefit? If you're in a position where you need to be turning on a dime, something has gone wrong somewhere.

Originally Posted by fatty

• Real men do it in convoys!

Real men do it in the tropics against unescorted 10,000+ GRT tankers

Originally Posted by fatty

• Limited torpedos means you must really make your shots count. You also have to think carefully about which ships to shoot at.

You should be doing this with any boat you sail. Because when you're all out of torpedoes, the party's over and it's time to go home.

Originally Posted by fatty

• It's the sexiest-looking of all the u-boats.

You got me there.

Originally Posted by fatty

• Less fuel means shorter patrols so we can be home in time for tea

Shorter patrols mean less time at sea means less chances to sink ships means less tonnage!

hee hee hee....and the Type VII vs. Type IX debate rages on.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Real men do it in the tropics against unescorted 10,000+ GRT tankers

Real men do both.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Shorter patrols mean less time at sea means less chances to sink ships means less tonnage!

then explain why it was a type VII uboat that scored THE MOST TONNAGE during WW2 ? (U-48)

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Morts

then explain why it was a type VII uboat that scored THE MOST TONNAGE during WW2 ? (U-48)

For the same reason an IXB scored the most tonnage of any single war patrol. Weak early war ASW. On top of that U-48 was sinking ships in 1939, so it had a good head start. Boats like U-107 didnt get their start until 1941. If U-48 had started its first war patrol in 1941, and U-107 in 1939, the books would have come out very differently.

http://www.uboatwaffe.net/ops/boat.cgi?boat=48
http://www.uboatwaffe.net/ops/boat.cgi?boat=107


As for short patrol vs long patrol, my thought has always been this:

"Whats my big fired hurry to return to port? Im only going to turn around and run right back out here again "

[stabiz]

What Ducimus so casually avoids talking about here (since looking behind the numbers-mode is on), is that the IX class pounded away on alot of unescorted tankers and other floating kamikaze boats around the US, which earned the class lots of tonnage. Admiral King should also be mentioned.

But major kudos to you, fatty! You are absolutely right!

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by stabiz

What Ducimus so casually avoids talking about here (since looking behind the numbers-mode is on), is that the IX class pounded away on alot of unescorted tankers

So your insuiting type9's didnt do convoy's eh? well lets see here, lets pull a few uboats out of a hat.:

U-107 left Wilhelmshaven under the command of Günter Hessler on 24th Jan 1941 and arrived at Lorient on 1st Mar 1941 after just over five weeks.
Günter Hessler hit four ships on this patrol and all of them were in convoy: two were from convoy OB-279, one was from convoy OB-288 and one was from convoy SC-20.

On the 29th Mar 1941, U-107 left Lorient under the command of Günter Hessler and returned to Lorient on 2nd Jul 1941 after thirteen and a half weeks on patrol.
Günter Hessler hit fourteen ships on this patrol, eight of these ships were in convoy: One was from convoy OB-309, one was from convoy OB-318, one was from convoy OB-320, one was from convoy OB-323 and four were from convoy OG-57.

U-107 departed under Günter Hessler from Lorient on 6th Sep 1941 and arrived back at Lorient on 11th Nov 1941 after nine and a half weeks on patrol.
Günter Hessler hit three ships on this patrol and all of them were in convoy, all of them from convoy SL-87.

On the 7th Jan 1942, U-107 left Lorient under the command of Harald Gelhaus and arrived back at Lorient eight and a half weeks later on 7th Mar 1942.
Harald Gelhaus hit three ships on this patrol, one was from convoy ON-65.

On the 14th Nov 1940, U-123 left Lorient under the command of Karl-Heinz Moehle for operations W of England and returned to Lorient on 28th Nov 1940 after two weeks on patrol.
Karl-Heinz Moehle hit five ships on this patrol and all of them were in convoy: four were from convoy OB-244 and one was from convoy SL-53

-123 departed under Karl-Heinz Moehle from Lorient on 14th Jan 1941 for operations W of England and arrived back at Lorient on 28th Feb 1941 after six and a half weeks on patrol.
Karl-Heinz Moehle hit four ships on this patrol, two of these ships were in convoy: One was from convoy SC-20 and one was from convoy SC-21.

U-123 departed under Reinhard Hardegen from Lorient on 15th Jun 1941 for operations in the Central Atlantic and returned to Lorient on 23rd Aug 1941 after nearly ten weeks on patrol.
Reinhard Hardegen hit five ships on this patrol, four of these ships were in convoy: One was from convoy OB-337 and three were from convoy SL-78.

On the 1st Apr 1943, U-177 left Bordeaux under the command of Robert Gysae and returned to Bordeaux on 1st Oct 1943 after just over twentysix weeks on patrol.
At 1020 HRS on 6th Jun 1943 in square GR 25, U-177 came under attack from an aircraft of RCAF 413 Squadron.
Robert Gysae hit six ships on this patrol, three of these ships were in convoy: two were from convoy CD-20 and one was from convoy DN-53.

U-515 departed under Werner Henke from Lorient on 7th Nov 1942 and arrived back at Lorient on 6th Jan 1943 after eight and a half weeks on patrol.
Werner Henke hit three ships on this patrol, two of these ships were in convoy, both of them were from convoy Torch.

U-515 left Lorient under the command of Werner Henke on 21st Feb 1943 and returned seventeen and a half weeks later to Lorient on 24th Jun 1943.
On 29th Apr 1943 in square ET 26, U-515 came under attack from an aircraft of RAF 270 Squadron. U-515 was not damaged by the attack. The boat defended itself with flak without destroying the aircraft.
Werner Henke hit ten ships on this patrol, seven of these ships were in convoy, all of them from convoy TS-37.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by stabiz

is that the IX class pounded away on alot of unescorted tankers and other floating kamikaze boats around the US,!

I love that line

:hmm:

Patrol 1

• • On 3rd Feb 1941 he sank the British 4,683 ton Empire Citizen, sailing with convoy OB-279.
  • On 3rd Feb 1941 he sank the British 5,051 ton HMS Crispin, a member of convoy OB-279.
  • On 6th Feb 1941 he sank the Canadian 3,388 ton Maplecourt, part of convoy SC-20.
  • On 23rd Feb 1941 he sank the British 5,360 ton HMS Manistee, from convoy OB-288.

Patrol 2

On 8th Apr 1941 he sank the British 3,316 ton Helena Margareta, sailing with convoy OG-57.
On 8th Apr 1941 he sank the British 3,829 ton Eskdene, a member of convoy OG-57.
On 9th Apr 1941 he sank the British 4,671 ton Harpathian, part of convoy OG-57.
On 9th Apr 1941 he sank the British 8,516 ton Duffield, from convoy OG-57.
On 21st Apr 1941 he sank the British 10,305 ton Calchas.
On 30th Apr 1941 he sank the British 7,417 ton Lassell, sailing with convoy OB-309.
On 17th May 1941 he sank the Dutch 8,029 ton Marisa.
On 18th May 1941 he sank the British 8,286 ton Piako.
On 27th May 1941 he sank the British 5,108 ton Colonial, a member of convoy OB-318.
On 28th May 1941 he sank the Greek 3,748 ton Papalemos.
On 31st May 1941 he sank the British 5,664 ton Sire.
On 1st Jun 1941 he sank the British 5,013 ton Alfred Jones, part of convoy OB-320.
On 8th Jun 1941 he sank the British 7,816 ton Adda, from convoy OB-323.
On 13th Jun 1941 he sank the Greek 4,981 ton Pandias

U 107

Are some of those ships in convoy :hmm:

And the most successfull patrol ever wasnt off the US coast

U-107 headed southwards. Her operational area was around the Canary Islands and near Freetown, where she sank 14 ships for a total of 86,699 tons, starting with the British merchant SS Eskdene which required two torpedoes and 104 rounds from the heavy 105mm fast-firing deck cannon. The largest ship sunk on that patrol was the British Calchas of 10,305 tons. On 1 June, 1941 they sank the British U-boat trap Alfred Jones of 5,013 tons. U-107 returned to Lorient on 2 July 1941

Also if you look at the 19 most succesfull patrols

http://uboat.net/ops/top_patrols.htm

Not a VIIC in there

[STEED]

Don't mess Ducimes he knows his facts.

[CruiseTorpedo]

Weren't there also 7 or 8 times the number of type 7s built vs type 9? They were just different boats built for different fights. The 7 was smaller, easier to make, harder to see in a convoy so better for use in the north atlantic! The 9 can also go against convoys but typically from my readings they were more often the ones to go on long haul adventures where the 7s couldn't reach to hit the enemy in unprotected areas. Taking their time about it (because of the long trips they had to make) but still doing damage to the enemy. Why debate over it like one is better than the other?

[Ducimus]

IXA: 8 cmissioned
IXB: 14 comissioned:
IXC: 54 comissioned
IXC/40: 87 comissioned
IXD: 30 comissioned


Thats, 193 type 9 uboats.

verses:
VIIA: 10 comissioned
VIIB: 24 comissioned
VIIC: 568 comissioned
VIIC/41: 91 comissoned

Thats 693 type 7 uboats.


Now if one were to look at the top scoring uboats:
http://uboat.net/ops/successful_boats.htm

13 out of 20 are type 9's. Thats over half of the top earners.

If one were to look at the top scoring patrols:
http://uboat.net/ops/top_patrols.htm
Only 3 out of 20 uboats were type7's, the rest are type 9's.

From this, coupled with the fact that type 9's did attack convoy's just like type 7's, and that as a class they achieved these tallies with FEWER ships of their type, says something about their overall effectiveness as a class.

[STEED]

So there you have it.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by STEED

So there you have it.

yup
VII Rocks
so does the IX

[stabiz]

:rotfl:OF COURSE the 9`s will be in the Top Patrols-lists! They carry double the torpedo amount, not much mystery in that. But if a VII takes two patrols in that time, and sinks half the tonnage in each, it would come out bad on that list, which yet again shows that numbers can be used to show whatever you want.