submerge launch sub-air missile

[caymanlee]

anyone interest?

[Molon Labe]

AIM-9X Land Launch Demo Advances Sub Payload Capability

By Team Submarine Public Affairs, NAVSEA Newswire, 5 Jan 06
WASHINGTON - The Navy successfully conducted a research and development (R&D) land based test at an Army range in New Mexico, leveraging the Sidewinder AIM-9X missile, an air to air missile used on tactical fighter aircraft, to proof out critical missile adaptation features for submarine use.
Among the test objectives achieved in November 2005 were the ability to vertically launch the missile from zero velocity, and to lock-on after launch. The test was a collaborative effort between the Joint Program Office for Air to Air Missiles, Raytheon Missile Systems and Team Submarine Advanced Research. Capt. Mark Bock, program manager for Team Submarine's Undersea Defensive Systems Program Office, led this effort.
The land launched test involved detecting, tracking and destroying an unmanned helicopter drone. The target was not visible to the missile at launch. The missile turned and acquired the target several miles down range, remaining locked on until intercept.
Many “firsts” were achieved during this demonstration. Aside from the zero air speed vertical launch, this test was also the first AIM-9X launched from an Army Chaparral trailer, the first AIM-9X to engage a target below 3,000 feet, or 300 knots, and the first launch using a commercial off the shelf fire control system.
Because the AIM-9X missile is a good choice for research and development (R&D) of small missile payloads for the guided missile submarines (SSGNs) and attack submarines (SSNs), the results can be extended to other missile payloads and different platforms such as the Littoral Combat Ship.
The next step in this R&D process is to analyze the vertical launch thrust characteristics of gas production and temperature in support of encapsulation for an underwater test.
According to Capt. Bock, planning for in-water testing of the capability is currently underway.
“The ‘encapsulation’ technique will be the forerunner for deploying air breathing payloads like unmanned aerial vehicles from submarines in the future,” he said.
The most mature of these encapsulation technologies, the Stealthy Affordable Capsule System or SACS, will be leveraged for the next phase of risk reduction testing. This effort, led by the Northrop Grumman Corporation, will demonstrate the capability to encapsulate and perform submerged launch of the AIM-9X from a launch fixture representative of a submarine Vertical Launch System that is currently used for Tomahawk cruise missiles.
The long-range research goal is to be able to field any existing Department of Defense missile payload onboard submarines rapidly and at low cost.

The question for modders in whether to do this in DW would be what weapon to sacrifice, since new weapons can't be added to playables. The leading candidate would probably be the TASM, since that weapon has been removed from service and converted to TLAMs. But how many people would use a mod that didn't have TASMs? I suppose someone could still put them on AI SSGNs or Virginias if they wanted to, though.


But even if it could be done, how would it be done realilstically? We don't know for sure how the missile would be loaded out. The article suggests VLS use, but I personally question the utility of sacrificing a VLS tube for such a weapon. Unless a separate VLS is put on the sub, I think the idea of this being a VLS weapon is more of a sales pitch by Raytheon than something the Navy will actually plan to implement.



For these reasons, I think the inclusion of the "UIM"-9X on playables is a bad idea for the moment.



Does anyone know if the Virginia or Ohio SSGNs have the modular space to be used this way? I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility that these guys will carry the missile.

[LoBlo]

The AIM-9X is awesome. Check out the boresight and agility of these things.

I've modded a couple of sub AAM into the game to see what kindof tatics they could allow and its been interesting playing with them, though the vast majority of the time it backfires and makes things worse

So far there have been only 2 situations where its been worth firing...

1. When you absolutely MUST attack a heavily defended target and ASW are above circling, such as a "launch TLAM attack NOW!" order, but the coastline is being heavily patrolled.
2. When your escaping datum in shallow water, and all of a sudden you receive a "Torpedo in the water!" message meaning you've already been counterdetected. Its better to go deep..., but if you can't because of shallow water then snapshooting has been the next best option before evading.

In the first scenario, before I launch TLAMs (which will 100% garantee you'll be detected) I'll raise an ESM to check for ASW helos. If one is within 10nm then I'll launch a couple of AAMs that direction right before I let loose the TLAMs. If the PK of missiles are good (>95%) and the missiles is agile enough to achieve the right vector quickly (to not overturn the helo) then it will kill the helo before it can drop torps and give me time to clear datum before its replacement shows up.

In the 2nd scenario, which happens more often, if escaping a datum (after loosing a salvo) and a torpedo in water drop is detected (meaning a ASW helo has attacked), then I'll loose a 2-3 AAM on a 80degree spread) to try to kill the helo that dropped the torps as I manuever. The success is encumbant of having the missiles on snapshot and the tubes preflooded in anticipation. They will kill the helo preventing a 2nd drop as you evade the first.

In all other situations its almost always come back to bite me to fire them.

[LoBlo]

On a side note, there is an interesting excerpt from one of the chapters in Stan Zimmerman's "Submairne Technology for the 21st Century" showing evidence that Russian and Indian subs have had submerged launched anti-air missiles for years..

Originally Posted by Submarine Technology for the 21st Century by Stan Zimmerman

The Russian Typhoon-class strategic missile submarine as well as the Kilo-class diesel-electric boats built for export all carry SAMs, U.S. Navy intelligence sources say. The first indication such a system was operational came in 1983 when electronic support measures on a Norwegian P-3 patrol aircraft identified radar emissions usually associated with SAMs from a Typhoon.
The first visual indication a subarine SAM (which we'll call a subsam) was fitted on the Typhoon came with identification of a hinged blast delfector on the top of the sail. Hinged on the forward end, the deflector is raised when the missile is fired on the surface to prevent injury to personnel in the conning tower and damage to various periscopes and other mast between the deflector and conning tower. The deflector is prominent on the Kilo-class boats, but blends into the sail on the Typhoon.
The subsam is housed in a circular pressure-tight compartment about four feet in diamter. The launcher is trainable both horizontally and vertically, sitting atop a periscope-like extension when deployed. The subsams are contained in a circular frame similar in appearance to an anti-submarine warfare RBU-series launcher. The system contains at least 12 and perhaps as many as 18 missiles. An optical range finder is fitted in the center of the launcher. The system is sighted from the submarine's control room. The sources say the launcher can be extended from underwater to the surface like a periscope.

Interesting, no?:hmm:

[Molon Labe]

What I'd be interested in knowing is what information the UIM-9X would need before it was fired.

Conventional AIM-9s are already locked onto the target before they fire. The seeker is aimed by the radar in most cases. The seeker can search for a target independently, but this is slower. How much slower? I have no idea...

So, when the UGM-9 breaks the surface, can it find a target without hellp? 90 degrees off-boresight gives it the capability to see a low flying target for a few moments, but it doesn't guarantee that the seeker will search the right part of the sky in the time it has. My guess is that it can't, or at least can't reliably. If that guess is right, then the missile will need to have a bearing assigned by the sub. If it has that info, it can nose over in the right direction. Presumably, the scan pattern can be narrowed to increase the chance it finds the target.

[Bill Nichols]

The AIM-9 is a dinky little missile. I want one of these, instead:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...66636389127522

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

The AIM-9 is a dinky little missile. I want one of these, instead:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...66636389127522

Too many people on the interwebs have too much time on their hands. Sigh.

[UglyMowgli]

the Polyphem sub lauch SAM is better, but the program is no longer in progress ; DCN had a project to put a MICA IR missile in a Exocet ASM container as SAM system, I see some photos during the las Euronaval

[caymanlee]

maybe the following link you would be interested:

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/p/2006-0...743342946.html



according to the article, there are some developed and develpoing system:
1 French and German co-developing a sub anti-air missile system: "Polyphem-SM" , a Fiber-guided missile, tue-fired container, when it approach the surface, the missile break form the container(when it will 1 mile from the mother-sub), and searching the target by video which controled by the mother-sub

the image the system capture

but seem like right now ,the program have been shut down

2 the developing version of "Polyphem-SM" , name "sea-god", co-developing by German and Norway, which is a IR camera Sensor guided missile, without the container, launch by hydraulic pressure, and the missile can cruise before it find and attack the target

same destiny as the "Polyphem-SM"
"sea-god" system show


3 the latest developing system is:IDAS
German and Norway co-developed
It's said that this system will be completed in 2009
tue launching, fiber guided, IR-camera sensor ,360 degree searching, range:15 km

IDAS system deployed


IDAS test simulation system


4 SIAM: American Ford Space Co. developed system,1980 test successful, 1986 produced, VLS, IR and Radar guided system, may be it is used now on Virginia and Seawolf

5 British SLAM anti-air system:1973 deployed, periscope launch, TV-guided, IR sensor,Radio control, deployed in many navies of the world
First actual used sub-anti-air missile system

[TLAM Strike]

What about that SAM system from HMS Unseen. I want to shoot down the Concord and assasanate people!

[caymanlee]

After many experiments on the game, I conclude that create a new doctrine about a SAM missile launching from a submerge sub can make that idea work

In those experiments, I create some new Radar(FC)sensor onto a AI subs, those sensor have a range accross water and air, theoretically, it can pick up the signal of plane and helo when it is under the water, same modification has been migrated to the sam missile I choose(sa-n-6), the result: brand new SA-N-6 SUB missile

but eventually problem is that:
1 when the sub under water, it can detect the plane or helo and correspond its movement, but the missile never launch
2 when the sub surface,the sub can launch the SAM automatically, and the missile can hit the target efficiently

Can it be done? hoping for expert advise

[suttorad]

Why new sensor for subs ? All subs has Active Intercept detector, missile has own radar or IR seeker. When AI sub detect "ping" from helo sonar or detect the helo other way (ESM etc.), she can launch SubSAM at this bearing. Of course, there will be restriction for depth max 50 meters (150 feets) and speed less or equal to 5 kts.

[caymanlee]

Originally Posted by suttorad

Why new sensor for subs ? All subs has Active Intercept detector, missile has own radar or IR seeker. When AI sub detect "ping" from helo sonar or detect the helo other way (ESM etc.), she can launch SubSAM at this bearing. Of course, there will be restriction for depth max 50 meters (150 feets) and speed less or equal to 5 kts.

Exactly why I create a new sensor----depth, altitude

sonar, ESM, radar, IR 4 kinds of new sensor, with a detection from -600m to 30000m, of course, it is a wild guess, but worth a try!


Still, the problem "how a SAM lauch under water" hasn't been solved, any suggestion???

[UglyMowgli]

put a sailor, a dinguy and a SAM launcher in a torpedo tube, eject all, when on suface the man climb on the dinguy, adjust the launcher, fire, the blast sunk the dinguy then the man had to swin to the nearest coast.

[caymanlee]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

put a sailor, a dinguy and a SAM launcher in a torpedo tube, eject all, when on suface the man climb on the dinguy, adjust the launcher, fire, the blast sunk the dinguy then the man had to swin to the nearest coast.

show me how u eject SAM launcher