Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Jimbuna]

[mapuc]

Markus

[Jimbuna]

[mapuc]

I listen a lot to this Danish military expert.



Markus

[Skybird]

The West still rejects reality. We are dancing a sleepwalking waltz deeper and deeper into the new world war that already is raging in form of many small wars that in their total sum threaten to overwhelm us. And what do we do? We pull the blanket over our heads and close the eyes. Europe is both militarily and potlically weakl and oncreaiosngly economically as well. The US is militarily still strong but looses strength with every year's quarter passing, and politically is indifferent, undecided and weak. Trump or Biden - both choices can and will make it only worse.

https://www-t--online-de.translate.g...x_tr_hist=true

[mapuc]

You said Europe is weak, Even NATO is weaker than we may think



Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

You said Europe is weak, Even NATO is weaker than we may think



Markus

As of 2024, NATO had approximately 3.39 million active military personnel, compared with 1.32 million active military personnel in the Russian military. The collective military capabilities of the 32 countries that make up NATO outnumber Russia in terms of aircraft, at 22,308 to 4,814, and in naval power, with 2,258 military ships, to 781. Russia's ground combat vehicle capacity is more competitive, however, with 14,777 main battle tanks, to NATO's 11,390. The combined nuclear arsenal of the United States, United Kingdom, and France amounted to 5,943 nuclear warheads, compared with Russia's 5,977. Any that says we are weak are delusional. In light of these figures, NATO's GDP surpasses China's by 2.554 times and Russia's by an astonishing 20.5 times. Do your maths!

We see Russia failing against a minor army and those armchair analyst say we are weak only defeatists defeatism never won a war they surrendered beforehand and there will be no WW3 you really think Russia is capable or dears to risk a nuclear war nah we are in a new Cold War that is it. Do not think China will support a WW3 either they do not want to lose their biggest costumers "the West" that we gone prepare for a war is the whole concept of a Cold War let Russia know we are ready for them.

And now for the reason why Mark Rutte became the new NATO chief:
It was at the infamous 2018 NATO summit, where tensions skyrocketed. Trump talked and talked. He said, I want 4 percent and I want you all to come back in one hour and tell me where you got it from. 'After an hour, Trump began discussing countries' contributions, one by one. He began to rattle off Slovenia. '1 percent. Those never give you what you want anyway, better just take what you can get there. Next. There was silence. And then Mark spoke. Everyone thought: what is he doing? He said, "Stop, Donald! This is not right. You know we all liked Barack, he was our friend, but he didn't force us to increase our defence spending. You did! Under your leadership, we spent 41 billion more on defence in the last two years! Unbelievable, never seen before. So stop this and tell the world that you forced us to spend 41 billion more. Trump thanked him. 'I already knew you were the smartest of the bunch since you visited me at the White House. Today you saved NATO, Mark.' And he walked out and gave a press conference and bragged about that 41 billion.'

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

As of 2024, NATO had approximately 3.39 million active military personnel, compared with 1.32 million active military personnel in the Russian military. The collective military capabilities of the 32 countries that make up NATO outnumber Russia in terms of aircraft, at 22,308 to 4,814, and in naval power, with 2,258 military ships, to 781. Russia's ground combat vehicle capacity is more competitive, however, with 14,777 main battle tanks, to NATO's 11,390. The combined nuclear arsenal of the United States, United Kingdom, and France amounted to 5,943 nuclear warheads, compared with Russia's 5,977. Any that says we are weak are delusional. In light of these figures, NATO's GDP surpasses China's by 2.554 times and Russia's by an astonishing 20.5 times. Do your math!

I think it hasn't so much to do with the comparison between NATO and Russia

One of NATO's weakness lay in the technology- A German fighter jet, like Tornado can't just land in Denmark, Sweden or in one of the Baltic states and get a refuel and rearmed. The same goes for the British Harriet.
(This I learned in a documentary about NATO)

This is why more and more European countries is buying the American F-35 so a pilot can land in whatever NATO country he desire and get a refuel and a new ammo loaded.

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I think it hasn't so much to do with the comparison between NATO and Russia

One of NATO's weakness lay in the technology- A German fighter jet, like Tornado can't just land in Denmark, Sweden or in one of the Baltic states and get a refuel and rearmed. The same goes for the British Harriet.
(This I learned in a documentary about NATO)

This is why more and more European countries is buying the American F-35 so a pilot can land in whatever NATO country he desire and get a refuel and a new ammo loaded.

Markus

It has all to do with what we have and how rich we are, we out equip, produce the shyte out of Russia when we in a war with them. We train since the beginning with all those different technology for decades we can do this like Ukraine can handle all those different technologies. We buy the American F-35 because we already fly its former generation fighter. I can only speak for the Netherlands there it was no real choice, our air force is a US air force since WW2. We train and fight with the US for decades, so no real surprise we choose American fighters.

[Skybird]

I agree that most peoples' natural first ideas about how a confrontation would look like, are misled and based on historical examples that are just no longer valid.

In fact i am convinced that we are already under Russian attack right now, and since years, and not just metaphorically. In form of sabotage acts (for example in Berlin a big fire at a defence industry-relevant factory is linked to Russian intel operations, or take the attack on the inner-finnish pipeline in the Baltic three, four months ago - we all have our suspicions who is behind that, dont we). Cyber attacks anyway. Sociological attacks by supporting trouble-making minorities, extremist parties and special interest groups, destabilising communal integrity and cultural cohesion as well as manipulating public opinion formig and political decision making.

I also have big doubts that in case of a traditional land, air and sea war with Russia, all NATO countries would answer the call equally. Not to mention that NATO'S heavy hittem, the US, has its firepower not just concentrated in Europe, but around the glove, is scattered around. So are European NATO forces, most of them would be away from the actual frontlines. I also have doubts on the quality of not just the German but the French, Italian and other troops as well, on the available quantity and material reserves anyway.

Russia tries to set the world ablaze in ways we are ill equipped and prepared to deal with, and in ways that suit its own competences best. Maximising our disadvantages and maximising their advantages. China does the same, so does Iran. And obviously the West finds it extremely difficult to answer to this adequately.

We also lack the public toughness to accept the conflict as what it is, and pulling off our gloves. We prefer to spend - and dive even deeper into debts - for social topics and climate theatre. Defence still is just a word. NIMBY.

We could do better. But we do not want to do better, because then we would need to do things differently and live in another world and set different priporities, and this is what we refuse to accept.

Reality will teach us. Mercilessly. Its not a question of "if" but only "when" it will hit us like a crashing satellite dropping off orbit. Or one of the light spots falling off the artifical sky ceiling in the Truman show, and right onto our head. That then will ruin more than just the rest of that day.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

It has all to do with what we have and how rich we are, we out equip, produce the shyte out of Russia when we in a war with them. We train since the beginning with all those different technology for decades we can do this like Ukraine can handle all those different technologies. We buy the American F-35 because we already fly its former generation fighter. I can only speak for the Netherlands there it was no real choice, our air force is a US air force since WW2. We train and fight with the US for decades, so no real surprise we choose American fighters.

Do not doubt me when I say in an open conflict NATO will kick Russians behind

I just say that NATO isn't as strong we wanna make it.

Markus

[Dargo]

There are on the moment eight battle groups in the eastern part of NATO alliance territory. If they are attacked, the NATO Response Force (NRF) will react in a very short time. Allies have placed thousands of additional troops – along with armoured vehicles, artillery units, ships and aircraft – at high readiness earmarked for the NRF, ensuring that it continues to have the speed, responsiveness and capability to defend NATO territory and populations. We already prepare for an attack and Russia sees this and do not kid yourself to think they so stupid with +80% of their army in Ukraine they will start a war with the biggest allied army of this globe. If Russia attacks, it attacks the whole of NATO.
As of December 2023, the eight battle groups are composed of the following Allies:

Host nation: Bulgaria
Framework nation: Italy
Contributing nations: Albania, Greece, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Türkiye and the United States

Host nation: Estonia
Framework nation: United Kingdom
Contributing nations: France and Iceland

Host nation: Hungary
Framework nation: Hungary
Contributing nations: Croatia, Italy, Türkiye and the United States

Host nation: Latvia
Framework nation: Canada
Contributing nations: Albania, Czechia, Iceland, Italy, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain

Host nation: Lithuania
Framework nation: Germany
Contributing nations: Belgium, Czechia, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway and the United States

Host nation: Poland
Framework nation: United States
Contributing nations: Croatia, Romania and the United Kingdom

Host nation: Romania
Framework nation: France
Contributing nations: Belgium, Luxembourg, North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal and the United States

Host nation: Slovakia
Framework nation: Czechia
Contributing nations: Germany and Slovenia

All with highly better training and equipment, good luck to them beating NATO.