[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

His question wasn't a logical trap at all. Your answer assumes that there is indeed a God.

The question is a logical trap Steve. You can't ask for an explanation of something that doesn't exist in the context of a debate. The question itself establishes (for the sake of the discussion purpose) that the subject - in this case - God, exists.

Its one thing to say "prove God exists". Its another to say "explain God to me". The first questions the existence of the subject, the second question is based on the accepted existence of the subject.

My answer assumes there is a God based upon his question.

You can't debate why concrete ships can float if one debate team refuses to recognize that concrete exists to start with.

Unfortunately that argument still has the same problem. How many miracles are listed in the Illiad? How many times does cancer just go away for no apparent reason? The answer is that we don't know. You can ascribe it to God. That doesn't make it so. It also doesn't make it not so, but justifying it as if you know for a fact it's real also doesn't make it so.

Heartc's post specifically referenced the Bible, and thus that is the best source to answer him from. The example of miracles in the Illiad don't apply since that was not part of the debate. Were it considered a valid source of information about the Xtian Diety, then maybe it could apply. Since it is not, it doesn't. Now your right that "we don't know".

Again, you have no logic or reason to fall back on, just faith.

I know by faith - which is not tangible or provable. So I accept the point your making here. However, reason does apply. Like every other believer, I have questioned too. Reason is part of what makes faith so powerful. There is a logical, straightforward path in faith if you truly seek it. But that isn't something I can give to anyone - it must be sought after individually.

No, he's asking why one person claims to have actually seen God when the vast majority have not. Is it because the vast majority of us are evil? Possibly. Is it because the vast majority don't have enough faith, or place their faith in the wrong God? Maybe. Is it because, as you believe, that God's reasons are his own and it's not for us to know, or to question. Could be. I'm not challenging your faith, because I don't know that you're wrong. I am challenging your misuse of reason to defend what no one can see (except apparently the chosen few), and to attempt to explain what you say cannot be explained.

Now perhaps I misread what Castout said - but I think he said he has seen the GLORY of God. Now what that means to him, I can't say. I have seen the glory of God many times - but I have never seen God. But then again, some of what I would call the glory of the Almighty, others might just call a sunrise or a medically unexplained mystery. Like all else, perspective is individual.

Or it's an attempt to explain why bad things happen, and the authors didn't have any more clue that we do. Heartc doesn't have an expectation of God, he just asked why. You don't have an explanation, other than "God works in mysterious ways". That's no explanation at all.

I disagree. The question was basically "are these good and just actions" by God in reference to various raised issues. My answer was not that "God works in mysterious ways" - my answer was yes they are - because the Almighty (whose presence is, for the discussion, established by the mere question) chooses it to be. The question of "why" is then answered with the fact that God sees the forest while we see the trees. The question is about the Abrahamic God, so the attributes of that Diety as described in the source document we are using (the Bible) are fair for me to point out in relation to our own, more limited human viewpoint.

People like me ask questions. People like you see every question as a challenge. The problem there of course is that some of the questioners really disbelieve, rather than not believe, and they really are challenging rather than questioning. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to see some genuine evidence, and I haven't yet.

I took the question as an opportunity to help make clear the issues raised. Yes, there was a tone of disbelief in the questions. Still, maybe a bit will help someone - either a believer be stronger in their faith, or a sinner come a little closer to the Lord.

As for proof - the only proof is what you experience for yourself. Otherwise you have to wait for the Tribulation. I am guessing that a really sizable portion of the world's population just disappearing without a trace is pretty good proof. Honestly, I would hope that no one has to deal with the aftermath though as a new believer, but there will be those that do.

If it really happened at all. There's no evidence outside the Bible.

Actually there is some proof, but irrefutable proof means we would have to be able to see it happen, and that isn't in the cards. However, the questions regarding the plagues specifically are from the Bible. Why is it inappropriate to answer a question based upon Scripture with other Scripture? Not sure what the problem here is.

I would agree, but I still have to ask: Is there the slightest evidence beyond your belief that this as anything to do with God?

Circumstancial evidence, yes. Direct, smoking gun evidence, no.
If you want to delve into that subject, we can.

Or The Lord doesn't exist at all, and everything is what it is because it is. Again, I don't know that you're wrong, but you keep assuming that you're right. I suppose you have to if you want to continue believing, but you fall far off base when you criticize someone else's "logic".

Herein lies the problem with that arguement: Science cannot explain what was before the big bang. It cant explain where the matter came from to have a big bang. It cant explain why - against unfathomable odds, single cell life came into being. It can't explain why, again challenging unfathomable odds, you and I can sit here as human being's on a world that works for us, able to communicate, able to appreciate the majesty of the mountains or hear the babbling of a stream. Science just can't come up with a full construct of how everything simply WORKS. The odds against it all coming together "as it is" is beyond the human mind to wrap around. Yet here we are. THAT defies logic.

So I look at an answer that makes more sense. The "chances" that there is an intelligent mind behind it all, that designed it and all the wonderful, cool interconnects - beyond what we can take in all at once (but we continue to learn and be astounded) is a lot more likely. The way the universe works is just too wondrous - too amazing - for it to have happened randomly. Everywhere you look you can see the design behind it. To look at what science knows about the universe, about the human brain, about atomic particles or gravity or thousands of other things and deny a design boggles the mind.

E=MC2 is a bit much for random chance, don't you think?

However - yes - for the sake of the discussion I "assumed" I am right, because the question is predicated on me being right about the existence of the Almighty.