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- - Into the Storm - AAR (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=231020)

p7p8	04-24-17 01:30 PM

Into the Storm - AAR

Some screens from playing. (At beginning I forgot to make screens - sorry)

My loadout:

http://i.imgur.com/50btPv5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/I22EG7n.jpg

After start I've increased altitude for better radar range detection.
I also made some ploting around interested area (I assumed target speed around 15 kts - but it was 20!)

Finally I found first 50 Hz contact form deep sonobuoys. Target was outside ploted circle!

http://i.imgur.com/IWqnKr9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ffENTB3.jpg

Predicting target speed:

http://i.imgur.com/k6q1spB.jpg

I hadn't permission to attack. My task was to track target. After some time i've recived permission for attack and for droping DICASS.

http://i.imgur.com/pgVti1k.jpg

My 2 mines splash water too far from target. Yankee was only damaged! (I didn't know how badly).

So I made another approach:

http://i.imgur.com/N90XHgg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZjYDYiw.jpg

Yankee was deadly hit!

http://i.imgur.com/1BeHYh2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sQQ4AGt.jpg

Mission sumary:

http://i.imgur.com/6O5K4ky.jpg

Some words after game. This is very nice scenario. Not too hard but very immersive.

Props:
- good map
- immersive messages, weather and "cold war" climate
- tracking target before attack permission (really good idea)
- many "contacts" on way to OPAREA
- good idea for scenario

Cons:
- civilian traffic is to heavy for stormy weather
- lack of other (civilian) 50 Hz contacts near target
- player is "untouchable" all the time (some russian small warships would be nice)
- lack of allied SSN (british HMS Spartan submarine) who "lost contact" with soviet sub.
- soviet sub starts too far from "last known position".
- lack of information what was course of soviet submarine (W, SW etc.)

Of course this is my opinion. All cons are minor, because mission is very fun for playing.

I recommend this mission to all DW players, not only Orion drivers.

Good work NippleSpanner :Kaleun_Salute:

(sorry for my bad english)

Nippelspanner

04-24-17 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480521)

Some words after game. This is very nice scenario. Not too hard but very immersive.

Props:
- good map
- immersive messages, weather and "cold war" climate
- tracking target before attack permission (really good idea)
- many "contacts" on way to OPAREA
- good idea for scenario

Cons:
- civilian traffic is to heavy for stormy weather
- lack of other (civilian) 50 Hz contacts near target
- player is "untouchable" all the time (some russian small warships would be nice)
- lack of allied SSN (british HMS Spartan submarine) who "lost contact" with soviet sub.
- soviet sub starts too far from "last known position".
- lack of information what was course of soviet submarine (W, SW etc.)

Of course this is my opinion. All cons are minor, because mission is very fun for playing.

I recommend this mission to all DW players, not only Orion drivers.

Good work NippleSpanner :Kaleun_Salute:

(sorry for my bad english)

Thank you for your kind words and the feedback - it helps a lot and gives me a few ideas I'll try to implement/change - like not allowing mines altogether, since they are just an uncontrollable hazard in civilian waters, torpedoes not so much. :O:

Quote:

- good map

All hail Stewy1 for his template-pack! :03:

Quote:

- civilian traffic is to heavy for stormy weather

Can you elaborate? :hmmm:

Quote:

- lack of other (civilian) 50 Hz contacts near target

Good point! I wanted to adjust the difficulty anyways - the mission is too easy, I was aware of that, but figured to release it anyways and wait for response.

Quote:

- player is "untouchable" all the time

And it will stay that way, at least in this scenario. It's not meant as a "challenge" in regards of survivability, it's your typical "cold war gone hot POSSUB hunt" :ping:

Quote:

- lack of allied SSN (british HMS Spartan submarine) who "lost contact" with soviet sub.

Thanks for the salt in the wound, haha.
Here's the reason: The AI sub sends link-contacts all the time, which I do not want for this scenario, I want the player to be the sole hunter-
I had the Spartan ingame initially, but it caused only problems and I couldn't figure out a workaround that's worth it. :doh:

Quote:

- soviet sub starts too far from "last known position".

How do you know?
The player has no information what the enemy sub (there are 4 random ones, picked at mission start btw.) has done in the hour after HMS Spartan lost contact.
It can spawn relatively close, or rather far away - simulating slow/fast speed, and to help with replayability.

Quote:

- lack of information what was course of soviet submarine (W, SW etc.)

On purpose. Let's assume HMS Spartan did not had contact long enough to really determine this, or let's assume the soviet sub changes course etc.
Additionally, the briefing does mention the sub is heading for the Denmark Strait, which is due West, roughly. :up:

I'm sorry it was ultimately way too easy for a seasoned player like you, the AAR clearly shows you know the drill and I actually want to design missions for players like you, the type that plays "thoroughly"... if that makes any sense.

p7p8	04-25-17 01:47 PM

Quote:

- civilian traffic is to heavy for stormy weather

Sea state in this mission is 5 (maximum from editor). When weather is so bad, most of ships are in safe place like port. Especially very small like this one:

http://i.imgur.com/Oo7FD8X.jpg

and this one:

http://i.imgur.com/097FMcy.jpg

In your mission you have 31 civilian ships in the middle of heavy storm.

Quote:

The AI sub sends link-contacts all the time, which I do not want for this scenario, I want the player to be the sole hunter-
I had the Spartan ingame initially, but it caused only problems and I couldn't figure out a workaround that's worth it.

You can give HMS Spartan separate side and add alliance with your side. Allied platforms don't link. It would be fun to detect HMS Spartan instead Yankee :)

Quote:

- soviet sub starts too far from "last known position".

My target was "SovSub 3. Sub was 10 nmi from edge of circle, so speed for him should be minimum 20 kts (30 minutes and range 10 nmi). But Yankee had speed only 11 kts! Of course we don't know how fast he goes before Orion start but HMS Spartan shouldn't lost track of very noisy (20 kts!) sub like Yankee.

I think better solution is give player quite correct last position of soviet sub but increase time for since contact lost. (Weather is so bad, Orion couldn't start earlier)

Quote:

On purpose. Let's assume HMS Spartan did not had contact long enough to really determine this, or let's assume the soviet sub changes course etc.
Additionally, the briefing does mention the sub is heading for the Denmark Strait, which is due West, roughly.

Sorry i've missing that information.

Like I said before, this scenario is very good and nice for playing.

Nippelspanner

04-25-17 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480708)

When weather is so bad, most of ships are in safe place like port.

Yes, but ingame the weather isn't even that bad, despite the official sea state, that's why I left the fishers out there. But you raise a point worth thinking about!

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480708)

In your mission you have 31 civilian ships in the middle of heavy storm.

Most are blue water vessels, though, they're build to withstand rough seas.
The fishermen, however...

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480708)

You can give HMS Spartan separate side and add alliance with your side. Allied platforms don't link. It would be fun to detect HMS Spartan instead Yankee :)

Now that information is gold. Thank you!
Spartan will be back soon.
Overzealous players attacking this, instead of the enemy sub, was my original reason to add it besides immersion in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480708)

My target was "SovSub 3. Sub was 10 nmi from edge of circle, so speed for him should be minimum 20 kts (30 minutes and range 10 nmi). But Yankee had speed only 11 kts!

Ahh, of course! I didn't think about that when selecting the 4 random subs, good point! Expect this to be fixed in the next version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2480708)

I think better solution is give player quite correct last position of soviet sub but increase time for since contact lost. (Weather is so bad, Orion couldn't start earlier)

Again, very good point and idea, it suits the scenario perfectly.

:up:

Nippelspanner

04-26-17 03:24 PM

Alright, I edited the mission according to your feedback.
I can't edit my original release-post, so I'll post the mission here for you in case you want to give it another go, and simply abuse you as a test-subject.
I'd sure appreciate it. :arrgh!:

Changelog:
- Enemy sub(s) now have 3hrs headstart instead of 30min
- Fishing vessels removed / approaching Reykjavik to evade the storm
- HMS Spartan (SSN 111) is back in
- Yankee-class spawn position fixed
- Other subs spawn positions adjusted
- Civilian and fauna traffic redone from scratch
- Mines are prohibited, orders adjusted accordingly
- If player drops torpedoes or mine, mission will abort
- adjustments to, hopefully, raise the difficulty of the mission
- Penguin 2 -> Penguin 8 - whydidn'tidosointhefirstplace? :yeah:

Raw Mission:

p7p8	04-28-17 10:48 AM

New version completed.

This time my target was Delta III.

Getting high speed and altitude after start.

http://i.imgur.com/rclMi88.jpg?1

Decreasing atlitude near OPAREA (visible ploted circles and planed places for sonobuoys)

http://i.imgur.com/eQrbKWe.jpg

Sonobuoy plan

http://i.imgur.com/KB8Rt0j.jpg

Sonobuoy work :)

http://i.imgur.com/GgJE5If.jpg?1

Visible civilians from low altitude

http://i.imgur.com/1v1ks1z.jpg?3

First 50 Hz detected (sonobuoy #7)

http://i.imgur.com/gyktJzi.jpg

Identification

http://i.imgur.com/kFPoZYJ.jpg

Attack (after permission)

http://i.imgur.com/C3XMVh0.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/A33pMz2.jpg

Going home

http://i.imgur.com/9bm3HzW.jpg

...going home :)

http://i.imgur.com/eGiIj6K.jpg?1

Risky landing :)

http://i.imgur.com/7Cf1HTS.jpg?1

Summary

http://i.imgur.com/AH5E374.jpg

Nice work Nipplespanner :salute:

BTW do you know, all MPA's can start directly from airfield? (on the ground)

Nippelspanner

04-28-17 10:52 AM

Uh, nice, I gotta try that buoy circles tactic!

What are MPA?
(oh, Maritime Patrol Aircraft I assume?)
And no, I did not know that, but I'm gonna check it out for future missions.

p7p8	04-28-17 11:51 AM

MPA

For starting from ground, change this:

...or, you can manualy change position for P3 Orion:

1) Place airplane on South end of airstrip, heading North
2) Give altitude 200-210 (on 3d view half of airplane should be under airstrip concrete)

Starting procedure:

1) Set gear down! - most important thing
2) press "3" (high speed)

(I didn't see your edition before. Long time for postin was caused chcecking changes for Penguin 8 in mission editor)

Nippelspanner

04-28-17 01:23 PM

Ah, so the takeoff-feature is more or less a glitch/workaround, not intended?
At least it sounds like it (having to lower the gear while...being on the ground lol).
In that case I'd rather stick to the current way of just getting airborne, I find it immersive enough.

So, since you really seem to master that P3, do you have further recommendations for future P3 missions?
I'd like to create more of them, but I'm not too sure what to do - and how to balance it so it is challenging but not frustrating (searching for 10 hours, nothing's happening...)

Any input is very welcome, and thanks again for playing - glad you enjoyed it! :salute:

p7p8	04-28-17 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner (Post 2481209)

Ah, so the takeoff-feature is more or less a glitch/workaround, not intended?

I don't think so. In my opinion it was "undone feature" because game engine recognizes specific position for aircrafts. Vanila DW had many bugs - too early relased

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner (Post 2481209)

So, since you really seem to master that P3, do you have further recommendations for future P3 missions?

Oh no! I am surface and sub player. MPA is only "anomaly" because nobody makes "non-training" missions for sub and surf unit :(

Nippelspanner

04-28-17 09:29 PM

What do you mean, non-training missions?
As in war-scenarios?

Most DW scenarios are live combat scenarios? :hmmm:

p7p8	04-28-17 10:22 PM

I wanna fight! But many latest community missions are for training: detection/TMA/maintaining speed/depth and other ridiculus things. Those kind of missions i can make in 5 minutes. Only writing descriptions takes lots of time.

DW is simulation on tactical level! I don't care about my boat crew needs, and what knob should be on "5 degree value" :)
I have knowledge "how to kill" enemy and I am very good at this.

I wanna FIGHT against good and experienced enemy - not against scripted AI
This is main reason why I make only MP missions.

My favourites platform:
1) all surface units
2) almost all SSN/SSK submarine units

Hated platforms (for playing, not for oponent role):
- Seawolf, Virginia, Akula III, Lada, chinese KILO

Personal ranking for MPA
1) Il-38 May
2) S-3 Viking
3) Atlantic MK III
4) P-3 Orion (little too powerfull)

Helo - I don't like to play.
(most players like helo because they play ONLY missions, where Helo is safe all the time - without enemy SAM's or surface unit's with long/medium range missiles)

Unbalanced/useless platforms:
1) Tu-142 (unrealistic weapons, overpower)
2) Ghost (...)

I love Los Angeles Flt I/II/III - this is my favourite "all the time" platform.

====

Before you design new mission, please to remember this words, my friend:

I wanna fight

:arrgh!:

Nippelspanner

04-28-17 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

I wanna fight! But many latest community missions are for training: detection/TMA/maintaining speed/depth and other ridiculus things. Those kind of missions i can make in 5 minutes. Only writing descriptions takes lots of time.

Mh, easy there.
Personally, I can see why people are tired of "find X, kill X" missions.
They did that since 2003.
If a training scenario is well made, it can be quite immersive, at least in my opinion.
More importantly, you say all this as if the majority of stuff (be it recently or at all), are training scenarios like you described. Though I only know a handful - in total, and if at all. If you check Subguru.com, or Subsims archive, most missions are indeed "go and kill" - so I'm uncertain about your problem?
On top, these missions are more difficult/time consuming to create than the usual combat scenario - because you need to work a lot with triggers, scripts, custom SFX and usually more radio messages, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

DW is simulation on tactical level! I don't care about my boat crew needs, and what knob should be on "5 degree value" :)
I have knowledge "how to kill" enemy and I am very good at this.

I wanna FIGHT against good and experienced enemy - not against scripted AI
This is main reason why I make only MP missions.

Crew needs? :hmmm:
Are we playing the same game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

Helo - I don't like to play.
(most players like helo because they play ONLY missions, where Helo is safe all the time - without enemy SAM's or surface unit's with long/medium range missiles)

Maybe, I never asked most players why they play what...
However, why is it a problem, assuming that is true?
Dangerous Waters is a sandbox, everyone can play as he pleases, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

Unbalanced/useless platforms:
1) Tu-142 (unrealistic weapons, overpower)
2) Ghost (...)

Well, it's a Russian-made mod, with the usual "Uraaa!" bias. Check the database, you'll see.
As for that joke being 'Ghost, why even list it?
It's obviously not meant serious and, I guess, was more a proof-of-concept, whoever plays with that thing? And even if... you'd never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

I love Los Angeles Flt I/II/III - this is my favourite "all the time" platform.

Same here, even prefer FLT I for 'nostalgic' and 'romantic' reasons (yes, Dallas, because Red October, I am that original...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by p7p8 (Post 2481249)

Before you design new mission, please to remember this words, my friend:

I wanna fight

:arrgh!:

Well, message received, but I really don't create missions for you personally, I follow my own taste, which so far was a mixture of scenarios and platforms, with one thing in common: All of them are late cold war period, except one (none released anyways, yet).

p7p8	04-29-17 05:22 AM

First: my comment had facetious character, so don't be too serious.

Quote:

If you check Subguru.com, or Subsims archive, most missions are indeed "go and kill" - so I'm uncertain about your problem?

Those missions aren't compatibile with newest RA.
Let's see, missions from last 5 years
- Stewy's Map pack1/2 - no comments
- NLL FONOPS - not for RA
- OHP work up training - and not for RA
- Seawolf work-ups training - and not for RA
- Cripple the Nevada
- OKHOTSK ASW - probably not compatibile
- INVINCIBLE SABOTAGE - probably not compatibile
- St. Petersburg Blockade - probably not compatibile
- all rest are too old

So, here we have only ONE non-training mission and TWO training missions. All missions on Subguru are not compatibile and too old.
All missions upgraded by RA team (in Scenario folder) are very old -all of them i have completed years ago.

Missions from Discord community are in most cases training or "sub-domination" - just bunch of submarines with random locations without any story or interesting task.

Quote:

Crew needs?
Are we playing the same game?

That was joke about Silent Hunter style of "simulation"

About helos:

Quote:

Maybe, I never asked most players why they play what...
However, why is it a problem, assuming that is true?
Dangerous Waters is a sandbox, everyone can play as he pleases, no?

I agree with you, that everyone play what he want. Problem is in MP. Many Helo/MPA players can't play well in dangerous zone - they are shooted down during first 15 minutes. Of course not all of them but too many :)

Quote:

Well, message received, but I really don't create missions for you personally, I follow my own taste, which so far was a mixture of scenarios and platforms, with one thing in common: All of them are late cold war period, except one (none released anyways, yet).

Your taste is quite similar to my taste but i prefer MP scenarios. For example:
in your mission tracked sub don't make any evasive maneuvers! It is not too wise, because after some time sub is attacked. Human player can detect droped sonobuoys and change depth/speed before you drop first torpedo. Human player can surface own boat and shoot you down! MAD search is much more risky against human player.

If you still prefer play against AI i recommend add some scripts for simulation more smart behaviour. Maybe trigger "approach" with sono detection zone with script "change speed and depth to (...")? I don't really know how to simulate human behavior when "tactic" for AI sub is "transit".

Your mission is very good technicaly and with nice task and story. I also likes Cold War (not only late) era scenarios. Keep up your work :)

Quote:

I really don't create missions for you personally

I know, but you asked me before:

Quote:

(...) do you have further recommendations for future P3 missions?

... yes, i have recommendations:

I wanna fight

:arrgh!:

Thx for nice disscussion :)
:Kaleun_Salute:

Nippelspanner

04-29-17 10:06 AM

Ah, that explains a thing or two.

Regarding evasive maneuvers for simple, that's possible, but rather difficult/time consuming to do, but I'll see if I can implement that.

As for old scenarios being incompatible with current RA, you're mistaken.
There are is just one case where a mission can be incompatible. FFG missions (because RA did changes in that regard). Besides that, missions may(!) play differently due to adjusted sensor values - but they are perfectly playable, technically.

For example, all of Bill Nichols missions work fine on my end, except one FFG mission that needed fixing.
Besides that, I play(ed) lots of missions I picked up at his page, some being 10 years old, or more.

What gives you the idea they are automatically incompatible?

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