Questions about TMO 2.0
 

Installed SH4 yesterday and im giving it a shot with TMO 2.0 loaded up

Apparently the depth charges are not historically accurate. It is known historical fact that Japanese depth charges in December 1941... all of 1942, and the first half of 1943 had only two fuse settings.... 100 feet and 200 feet. It was not until the "May Incident" that Japanese intelligence learned the true diving capability of US Subs and from late June 1943 onward the japanese depth charges had 3 settings. 100, 200 and now 300 feet - this was intel that was spread around and exploited by US Sub crews with great success for the first 19 months of the war. would be nice to have that advantage. It wasnt until some time later in 1944 that the Japanese Depth Charges could reach a depth of 480 feet. This represented one of the great military blunders in the history of war (similar in nature to the American torpedo problems) and i feel like there should be modifications to TMO to make the depth charges at least historically accurate. dont get me wrong - im not whining like a baby because i got my sub killed... im whining like a baby because i got my sub killed in a situation in which it would have been impossible for any japanese ship in the entire IJN to attack me.

the main reason i bring it up...

It appears that Thermal Layers are still not simulated in SH4 with pretty much any mod. I just 4 times in a row got my ass totally handed to me by a sub chaser at a depth of 625 ft, silent running, maneuvering the best i could, low RPM/ one knot in 1942 etc etc.

what irks me a bit more is that the sub chaser was several miles away just trolling around his little random area paying me no attention, and why would he? i was sitting on the bottom waiting for nightfall when all of the sudden he makes a Bee Line right toward me and starts DCing the crap out of me - i made no apparent provocation,noise etc and this situation did not make any sense to me.

and my last gripe - which is no doubt NOT TMO's fault - is that the mission at hand (and reason i died 4 times) is to take photo recon of a harbor. there are two ships in the port - both gunboats - i lock, photograph - nothing happens... no matter how many photographs i take, and no matter what i take photos of - the mission will not switch to "complete". I exit the game, reload the mission, go to the port, try to take the photos - same thing... no "complete" after taking pics. I'm not sure what to do except just take the "failed mission" lumps when i get back to port, and hope the next mission isnt a repeat.

so... thoughts on the depth charge settings in TMO?

i REALLY think for the sake of historical accuracy that from12/1941 - 6/1943 the deepest setting should be 200

then from 6/1943 to 6/1944 the deepest setting should be 300

then from 6/1944 - surrender the deepest depth setting should be 480

if this is not something our TMO gang will do - can i get help on doing it myself?

This has been discussed several times over the years. TMO gives you a much deeper diving depth than history so stated, but Ducimas knowing many boats went 600ft plus gave us that depth. I think he stated and most agree, if we have that depth game wise, the charges should go deeper. Simply, if one were to go deep and the charges not, evading would be acardish and you should never have a problem...who wants that.

Other good news, update to TMO 2.1 and the guns now can hit you at 10,000 plus yards..

TMO forces balance by making you plan your attacks. Once you learn how the AI works, even TMO is childs play. I use RSRD which nerfs many of TMO's crew ratings, but went and edited much harder ratings back in, many elite. That makes a big difference, but you may want to start with an easier AI using RSRD. Duc use to have an easier AI for TMO.

Learn and search evasion tactics using TMO...you should never get killed by a subchaser...:03:

If waters are calm in TMO, they can really hear you, rough water, you can basically sink the JP fleet at will.
Keep narrow.
When escorts make runs you have two friends that will never fail you, speed and depth. Hit flank as the escort passes. Slow speeds when escorts make runs is a killer with TMO. If you're deep enough, the charges all fall behind. A mild turn can help some. I don't like hard turns, often will put you in line with a charge from a Y gun.

I think Duc said he nerfed the thermals some, but not sure which version, probably 2.1

In SH4, Ducimas is our May....

thansk for the reply

let me start off by saying that i think TMO is a great mod with a lot of nice things to offer and i dont want to seem like im downing it because thats not what I'm attempting to do.

However, is there a more historically accurate supermod out there for SH4?

what i mean is: I think it odd to be all over the historical accuracy of the torpedo failures and deck gun reload times etc etc... but completely turn away from any sort of realism in regards to Japanese munitions failures.

in reality, most American Submarines that were sunk by depth charging, were sunk in relatively shallow waters because their missions required their presence there. or they were jumped by aircraft much like the U-boats.

other Depth charged american submarines found it somewhat easy to evade japanese depth charges for the first 19 months of the war because of the antiquated and poorly designed depth charges. it wasnt until the may incident that more subs were sunk using depth charges, but once word spread, the American subs only went deeper - again forcing the Japanese to adapt their ASW tactics for a third time.

its my personal opinion that if Allied failures of this sort are to be simulated - axis failures should be too, as it is one of the few advantages of the early war our subs had.

so, any supermod recommendations that might more closely simulate this.

its my thinking that - sadly -every supermod out there for SH4 has completely turned a blind eye toward the Japanese Anti-Submarine Warfare munitions failures in ww2.

Haven't played RFB in years, but sounds like the mod for you. I believe the crush depth is much shallower as are charges. Just lacks difficulty to me, but a more historical mod.

.

You start the post, bitching at me, about something I can do nothing about. I stopped reading there, cause i have to reiterate something for the UMPTEENTH Fing time, and I've done so, in ALL THREE SH mod forums at one point in time or another.

DEPTH CHARGE'S HAVE A MAX DEPTH OF 300 METERS. IT IS A HARDCODED ROUTINE OF THE AI. YOU CANNOT FORCE A SHIPBORNE DEPTH CHARGE TO EXPLODE AT A PREDETERMINED DEPTH. (air dropped depth charges you can) THIS HAS BEEN A PROBLEM IN SH3, IN SH4, AND SH5. ALL THREE GAMES CARRY THIS FLAW. THERE IS NOTHING I (and im guessing anyone else) CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Shouting not intentional, i just want to hammer this point.

Duc, you off your meds again..:har::03:

I swore when I played stock I could watch charges just go poof when at a certain depth, but it would've been much shallower than 300 meters.

I never see them go poof anymore, just blow up around me. Not sure what gives, been a long time, but I never see them poof anymore.

They do seem to have a predetermined depth, whatever you sub is at.
I always wondered when and how charges blow. Is there a time the enemy of AI reads sub is at certain depth and that's the depth they blow.

When a escort makes a run and charges hit the water, I assume somehow they're set to blow in footage ranges near your sub, some blow under, some above, but within a range. I often try to switch depths to fool them, but the only way I can do it fast enough is to blow tanks. If I do that, they almost always blow way under. Course I thought blowing tanks would surface you, but you can easily stop it and head back down. I usually only do this fighting Type ABS in 400 ft of water or less, works great, but seems unrealistic blowing tanks doesn't send you to the surface.

Ducimus.

1. dude... im not trying to bitch at you - sorry if it came across that way, I dont know how you think i started the post bitching at you when i never once "called you out" personally by name, nor did i make negative remarks about TMO like "this thing sucks" or "to hell with this mod" etc. all i did was said that A.) TMO has a lot of great things to offer and is a good mod B.) gave a legitimate citation in reference to my complaint and C.) lodged the complaint itself followed by suggestions for a solution.

2. i seriously have probably stuck my head in the door of the SH4 forums perhaps twice in the past 3 1/2 years - SH4 has been on my shelf in the box since only a few months after release, i may as well be a new member in this regard. I'm not a modder, im not in tune with whats going on in the SH4 mod community, i dont know whats possible and whats not.

so please, take a deep breath and forgive my ignorance of the situation

I was completely unaware - even with all my SH3 experience - that this was a hard coded issue. and if i was aware of it... its one of the dozens of things i have forgotten about the SH series over the past 6 years. i seem to recall something about 300 meters being the FLOOR of depth charges in SH3 - but thats it.

the only way i can get this information is to ask... unfortunately, i struggled for 15 minutes to write a post that wouldnt result in someone getting defensive... but then i remembered that in several years of SH3 mods - critiquing someones work - or asking for additional changes etc etc in a way that avoids hurting feelings, getting someone pissed, ruffling feathers or causing the mods creator's and fan base to go on the defensive is - next to impossible.

belive it or not... i did read the entire TMO manual from cover to cover the night before downloading TMO... because after all - throughout the GWX releases i was one of those "RTFM!!" people.

I must say there was not one mention of depth charge settings being hard coded, nor was there one mention of depth charge failings throughout the early war. it was reasonable of me to assume this was not simulated. however, my only sure way to learn this and find a possible solution - is to go on the forums and ask.

I'm sure it must be frustrating for you to have to address the questions of new users - God knows when GWX was released it was like fighting a hundred fires with a wet mop - but please make an attempt to not let it get to you... that sort of thing just comes with being a modder or a member of a mod team etc.

The japanese DCs in question had a baffle - a sort of hallow compartment.

this hallow compartment would flood as the DC sank. (think of a toilet tank)

when the baffle flooded, the depth charge would explode. This explosion took place between about 97-105 feet (this accepted standard is 100 feet)

if the submarine was suspected to be at a deeper depth, ther was a portion of the baffle that could be opened to make the baffle space large and allow it to take in more water. So... when the now enlarged baffle flooded the DC would explode. When the baffle was enlarged before launching the DC - the new explosive depth ranged anywhere from 195-205 feet (this accepted standard was 200 feet)

thus... the Japanese depth charges for the first half of the war only had 2 depth settings. approx 100 feet and approx 200 feet with perhaps a 5-10 foot margin of error.

This depth charge type was in use for about 20 years prior to the outbreak of world war two and had been unchanged by the Japanese until the end of June 1943 when a third setting was added to DCs

this setting allowed the DC to explode at about 300 feet.

by the end of the war - japanese depth charges were about on par with the DCs of other major powers capable of reaching up to approximately 480 feet.

**note: When using the 100 foot setting, the depth charge had a sort of small drift anchor (parachute) attached to it - this was required to slow the sink rate of the DC to keep the attacking DD from blowing itself up.

unfortunately for the Japanese - it also allowed plenty of time for the submarine to escape attack as well.

it is a major oversight on the part of Ubisoft to not at least simulate this on some level within SH4

I've read some of how they work historically, but as you said not in the game. Never heard of the chute though for shallower charges..

Still, we have hindsight and it's a game. We lack so many factors making the game realistic, knowing that the charges would always blow at two depths would be easy to defeat the already easy AI. The shallower sub depths in RFB may work better for your needs, but seems the charges will work the same.

My shrink say's i'm doing much better now.

How the AI works is this:
Once you've met all the criteria for its sensor to detect you, it really does know, exactly where your at, so long as you are within its sensor. The AI routine set's the depth charge to explode where it's detected you. ( This is the hardcoded part )

In reality, the depth charge handles the rest. How accurate or inaccurate the depth charge is, depends on a variable within the depth charge object called "Depth Precision" The vanilla value is 5, and this means the depth charge will randomly explode plus or minus 5 meters of the depth the AI routine set the charge. This means that if your detected at 100 meters, the depth charge will randomly explode from 95 meters to 105 meters. The larger number on depth percesion, the sloppier he gets. Unfortunately you can't go whole hog on making it sloppy because too high a number and you risk having Tin cans that blow their own tails off because the charges exploded right under them.

The only way you can limit the depth of depth charging, is to limit the sensors themselves. At that point, every evasion is childs play. Just dive to a depth you learned the AI can't ping you at, go to silent running, mash the TC key and he goes away, having never posed a threat to you at any time once you got to depth. Yaawn o rama.

Your first paragraph i felt a bit pointed to me, so I interpreted it as the start of a polite rant. Probably because i'm painfully aware of the problem. I don't like to be reminded of it. And the thing about TMO is, a whine, bitch, moan, or rant at TMO, really is a whine, bitch, moan, or rant directed at me, since i'm the one who's been building/managing it all this time. I had some great help with some parts of it, but the majority of TMO, was me flying solo. Some days my skin is thicker then others. Either way, i've spent (wasted?) far too much of my personal time on it.

fair enough.


shake hands?:up:

:haha: sure.

Like i edited in my last point... same days my skin is thicker then others. Some days, its not.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/pict...pictureid=4042

TMO is a great mod.

Agreed

Just wish good old ubi left us a way to correct their inaccuracies.

I, as I'm sure many are, am greatful for TMO and the time and effort you have put into it. I have always enjoyed subsims and marveled at each advancement through the years. You can imagine my utter disappointment with the realease of SH4 and my disgust for UBIs lack of effort in the absolute screwing of it's purchasers. And what's worse, these guys (UBI) still don't get it. It was a stroke of good fortune to discover the Subsim community and I am thankful to all of you who have used your own time to improve this sim. Although perfection would be great, we have to remember is doesn't exist. Ducimus, you are as close to it as anyone and I thank you for your work and the valuable time you dedicated to an effort that so many of us have benefited from.