SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - German Constitutional High Court delays ratification of EU plan for Lisbon coup

SUBSIM Radio Room Forums (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/index.php)

- General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)

- - German Constitutional High Court delays ratification of EU plan for Lisbon coup (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=153270)

German Constitutional High Court delays ratification of EU plan for Lisbon coup

The German Constitutional High Court has accepted a legal complaint brought in by several Ministerpresidents from the left as well as the conservative camp. The court ruled that the Lisbon coup document may not become valid in Germany, as long as the national legal basis in laws - that regulate that EU proposals neverthelss must be be checked and agreed on by federal states and federal parliaments - have been improved, because the Lisbon dictate in it's current form violates the constitutional demand for parliamentary control of legislation and policy-forming. This is to prevent a marching through by the EU that so far is given the power to press it's proposals through national parliaments without the latter having a legal right to reject them.

The German state president Köhler so far has refused to sign the Lisbon coup plan, although the Bundestag, with most members never having read the whole Lisbon dicate and not knowing what it means, already has ratified it in violation of the German constitution and against the demand of the German people. Thinking of some thorough mindwork of members of parliament here. :dead: They agreed to themselves being forced to violate the constitution and to ignore their parliamentary duties, not to mention their obligation towards those who elected them. Clever.

In a reader's poll in one newspaper today, n=3000+, roughly two thirds of readers said the Lisbon treaty is so bad that it should be scrapped alltogether, one in six said the treaty needs massive and fundamental changes and corrections, just one in ten said that in principle it is nice but nevertheless need corrections and improvements, and just one in ten said the treaty is fine like it is right now. Let'S do not rad toomuch into this one poll alone, it is no systematic poll representing a methodologically valid statistic - but it reflects a trend in weighing of antipathy and sympathy to the Lisbon dictate that you find time and again in German polls on the issue. A very huge majority of Germans is highly sceptical or openly hostile to this damn thing, and only a very small minority approves it - this is the trend you see in most systematic representative polls, too. I usually say 70% or more are against it (most of them strictly), 30% or less are in favour of it (with or without changes to it).

the court ruling should not be overstimated, it just means a delay, and politicians are world champions in bypassing legal limitations to things they want to get done. Also it is a typical ruling of that High Court: most often it is a little bit for everyone, but no real substantial Yes or No at all, and the Couirt is traditonally very europe-friendly anyway, due to a latent German bad consciousness towards the rest of the world. It is a bit more than I expected, but in no way as much as I see necessary.

The Czech and Polish presidents wait for the Irish votum, which again are being lured to the polls to make them vote like the EU wants it. If they say Nay again (I'm sceptical, but the hope dies last), they will be sent to the polls again some time later, I'm sure, or the politicians will find ways to abandon procedures and ratify it themselves.

The ratification of national parliaments in most cases means not much, since most did it in violation of public opinons at home (and in lacking knowledge of what that "treaty" really means). Which means the elected do not fulfill the will of those who elected them. Those who ratified it also hardly decided on the special prices won by the Irish so far in order to buy their vote. The Polish argument that past ratifications did not include these special offers, is correct.

Lisbon treaty. The most expensive toilet paper currently available. :damn: And very damaging to political health.

Good comment (in German): "Das Ende vom Traum eines Superstaates Europa":

http://www.welt.de/politik/article40...yes#reqdrucken

Quote:

I'm sure, or the politicians will find ways to abandon procedures and ratify it themselves.

The Irish politicians cannot ratify it themselves.

I remember back in the day, there was this great and powerful nation that didn't listen to some of its people. Those people became mad and voiced their opinions hoping to be heard once again. When they weren't, they started a revolution and won their independence. Being an American and of German descent, I hope the German Government listens to the people that put them in office if they like their heads where they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,druck-633691,00.html

By Hans-Jürgen Schlamp in Brussels

The political elite in Brussels are breathing a sigh of relief. The fact that Germany's highest court has set very strict conditions on the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty doesn't seem to be bothering anyone: The main thing is that the treaty doesn't have to be reworked again.

It didn't take anytime at all for the windbags in Brussels to start furiously sending out celebratory messages after Germany's highest court in Karlsruhe ruled on Tuesday that the Lisbon Treaty to reform the European Union doesn't directly violate the country's constitution.

"I welcome the decision of the German Federal Constitutional Court," Jose Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, the EU's executive branch, immediately announced, probably before he had had a chance to read through the 147-page ruling -- or even the 10-page press release.

That's because Barroso is currently in Greece, near Athens, as a guest at a working conference of German members of the European Parliament for the conservative Christian Democrats. They're currently working on more important things -- namely a plan to secure Barroso's re-election as the Commission's president. And one can't really say that the Karlsruhe judges recognized the Lisbon Treaty because of its "strengthening of the democratic legitimacy of the European Union," as Barroso sought to spin it.

German Checks and Balances for EU Laws
In fact, the exact opposite is true. The guardians of the German constitution are concerned about the EU's "democratic deficit" -- shortcomings it also sees in the Lisbon Treaty. On page after page, the justices formulate strict legal limits, stating that any future "Community law or Union law" deemed to violate those principles can be "declared inapplicable in Germany."

Somehow, though, the threatening verdict from Germany's highest court doesn't seem to be bothering anyone in Brussels.

Hans-Gert Pöttering, president of the European Parliament, "warmly welcomes" it. The Greens "welcome it." Even members of parliament for the far-left Left Party "welcomed" a "part of the ruling," even though their political bosses in Berlin were parties in the case seeking a blanket rejection of Lisbon at the Constitutional Court.

Klaus Hänsch, a longtime German Social Democrat in Brussels, described the development as a "good day for Germany." His colleague Alexander Lambsdorff, also a member of the European Parliament, warned his colleagues in Germany's Bundestag that the parliament must fulfil "its obligation" to make ratification of Lisbon possible by drafting domestic legislation demanded by the high court, so that the EU could be made "more democratic through the treaty."

Further Hurdles Remain
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, whose country takes over the six-month rotating EU presidency on Wednesday, said that the time table for the coming half year would not be changed by the ruling. According to the current time plan, the Lisbon Treaty, which aims to make the union more transparent, is intended to go into force by the end of the year.

Jan Fischer, the prime minister of the Czech Republic, which just completed its EU presidency, also welcomed Wednesday's ruling. "I see today's decision as an important step towards the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and towards institutional stability of the European Union," he said in a statement.

Still, it's difficult to pinpoint what is feeding all this Euro-euphoria. Many EU champions are just happy that the guardians of the German constitution didn't reject the Lisbon Treaty and that the worst-case scenario could be averted. Now, the complicated ratification process for this complicated treaty can continue.

But that alone is already going to be plenty of work. The next step in the process is an expected second referendum in Ireland in October that will see the Irish voting on Lisbon again after rejecting it last year. The euroskeptic presidents of Poland and the Czech Republic must also be cajoled into signing the treaty.

Still, the treaty -- forged out of what was originally planned as a European constitution that failed in referenda in France and the Netherlands -- has cleared one more hurdle. Everything that the Constitutional Court has rejected, criticized and noted, will initially have more impact on German domestic democratic institutions than European. That's why the pro-Lisbon faction is celebrating. At the same time, its opponents don't want to be seen as the losing party -- that wouldn't come across well with their supporters. So everybody's happy -- at least judging by outward appearances.

Even the Europe grumps in Bavaria with the Christian Social Union, the sister party to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union, who sued to stop Lisbon, are pleased with the Karlsruhe decision. But their pleasure is more schadenfreude than true joy. Markus Ferber, the leader of the CSU's party group in the European Parliament in Brussels, is less pleased about the development -- he would have preferred to see Lisbon fail the German legal review. But he's still happy that the court is forcing the German parliament to change the domestic laws pertaining to the ratification of the treaty and require greater participation from Germany's legislative bodies in the European decision-making process. Now, he says, there will finally "be more parliamentary control before governments make decisions in Brussels."

He says he has often told his colleagues in the German parliament that they give their chancellor and their ministers "too much freedom" in handing over competencies to Brussels and in passing new laws. In the future it won't be as easy as it often has been up until now for representatives of the 27 EU member states in Brussels to fiddle around and push through important decisions on a wide range of topics including personal or social security, cultural and legal questions or even military deployments involving German soldiers.

Before such decisions can be made, Germany's two legislative bodies, the Bundestag and the upper house of parliament, the Bundesrat, will have to give their approval. That might make the EU's work a little bit more cumbersome, but it will also be more democratic.

That so many eurocrats are behaving as if nothing has happened and the court ruling means just nothing than unlimited, unobstructed German support to the Lisbon coup, is suspicious. Andnthat in Germany parties want to push the demanded new law reform thourgh parliament even before the elections in September, also does not promise much good. I get the impression many peope think the ruling is just a minor nuisance that must not be taken serious.

I cautiously start to hope, now that we have heared more about the reasons and the content of the court sentence, that maybe more than I initially expected may come from this ruling. In fact very much of the criticisms that I have given in recent months, have been shared by the judges, and have been turned into solid and mandatory demands law-makers cannot evade now without offering other critics to sue them over violation of the court's sentence now.

I hope that in other nations people carefull read and take note of the German sentence, and see the argumentation behind it, and make it their own, too. Also, a marching through by the EU in German parliament should be prevented now.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...633933,00.html

Quote:

In other words, the court is talking about national parliaments, the true paragons of democracy (even if they do lie about their travel expenses a bit in London). In the court's opinion, unlike the European Parliament, these bodies don't have a "structural democratic deficit." And it's right: The fact that it only takes 70,000 voters in Luxembourg to get a seat in the European Parliament, while it takes 800,000 German voters to do the same thing, is proof in itself that there is no equality when it comes to voting. Given such deficits, the court came to the conclusion that further steps toward integration may "undermine (either) the states' political power of action (or) the principle of conferral."

Or, as the court clearly stated in its press release: "European integration may not result in the system of democratic rule in Germany being undermined." It's a sentiment shared by the people of the Czech Republic, Ireland and Great Britain (and they're serious about it there, where the typical British euro-skeptic already thinks of the European Parliament as the "mother of all parliaments"). People aren't talking about a unified Europe anymore. Nowadays, you're much more likely to hear people talking about a "Europe of the fatherlands."

If that would not be a return to de Gaulle, as I understood and defended him repeatedly!

Note that the confession towards Europe and Germany trying to embedd itself in peaceful partnership with European partners, is a constitutional obligation, formulated in our constitution as early as in the preface. The court'S decision is no decision against Europe, but a decision that brandmarks democratic deficits in the Lisbon dictate and criticices the corrupt way Europe as an allied entitity should be formed, if Lisbon had its way.

Eurocrats have become remarkably silent today and yesterday, after on the first day they were loud and enthusiastic - probably without having read the court ruling, just heared that Lisbon treaty went through. Now that knowledge of the details of the court sentence have spread, quite some eurocrats seem to realise that their project of a superstate ursurping powers and eroding national democracy have been shot down by the German judges, and that this will affect the EU even if no other state copys the German example. - But they should, for their own sake. It's a good senetence. More would have been better, but nevertheless it is a good sentence.

I hope the crisis in Brussel lives on as long as possible, for that increases chances that the trend of the past 15 years is being recognised as a terrible mistake, and they will start to return to the original ideas and principles the european unification project once has been about: an economic cooperation (not more, just this) of indepedant national fatherlands, in the Frenchman's words.