Help with manual targeting
 

I have gone through the sticky threads and have seen a few videos on manual targeting. Unfortunately, I haven't found them very helpful. Indeed, I didn't find the layout very helpful either combined with some of the jargon.

Basically, I need some help with the manual targeting. I thought the second video of Werner Sobe was useful, except that it was missing a few things. I really need a step-by-step instruction to get this right and preferably without having to do many hand calculations myself. Not that I'm afraid of it or would mind it, but it would help me get a challenge while not feeling like having to climb a mountain each time.

Can anyone help me with this and perhaps fill in the blanks that are in WernerSobe's video? The video is below.

https://youtu.be/KuSCx91PUmU

get this mod it will be very helpful ranging, https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=3334

have you seen the attack map,,

Was this mod included in the FOTRS mod? CapnScurvy was listed as a contributor to FOTRS.




edit> Incidentally the download link for this is no longer valid

The "Optical Correction" parts are in FotRSU, not the centered-targeting of the moved conning towers. His [REL] thread is "Optical Targeting Correction revised March 2012". All "views" in the FotRSU mod for the game are as in OTC. They did some site maintenance here on SubSim the other day, and I am getting errors when attempting to download that file also, but that is for the v1.4 game and the v1.4 of RFB anyway...

My understanding of the OP is that he wants the holes filled in for the WernerSobe vid though, and is not looking for a mod, as cool as the mod is... He doesn't like the math involved either - nor do I, which is why I almost always go with a quick 90 attack, aka: Dick O'Kane attack, or whatever your favorite skipper's name is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k5y...ature=emb_logo

That is linked to in Rockin Robbin's "Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks" posting from a while back. That vid is listed below the WernerSobe vidz, and there are several others of use for a skipper... Every once in a while, I get a hair where one shouldn't be, and try full-on manual targeting, but I usually waste over half of the loadout, and then finally give up after only hitting things I didn't aim at, and go back to the 90... patience is the main attribute required though, which ever manual targetting method you use, more so than the math. You still have to position your boat correctly, based upon correctly positioning the enemy vessel. Get either wrong, and it doesn't matter what method you use... :salute:

Okay, hope this helps.


Three most important pieces of data are:

Angle on the Bow

Speed

Range to target

First-Ascertain the speed. Easiest and most reliable way(until you become seasoned enough to estimate speed accurately based on visual observation, accounting for errors with spread of torpedoes as in real life) is to use the pencil on nav map to make an X on the targets icon, start the stop watch. When three minutes has elapsed, make an X on current position. Now, measure the distance traveled by drawing a line from first X to second X. 900 yards, means speed is 9 knots. 500 yards, speed is 5 knots. Easy enough?

I typically play without contacts so eyeball the speed and verify based on sound and radar data as well as my own plotting using the three minute method. More prone to errors without the continuous map contact updates, but works well with enough experience.

Second- Estimate Angle on Bow (AOB). Again, once play enough get good at estimating the angles accurately enough for a proper firing solution but if in doubt, use the protractor on the nav map to measure the angle from target's bow to the bow or stern of the submarine(depending on if firing bow or stern shot)

In a traditional approach and attack on a target. I first try to gauge the AOB. If you can't do this visually and have map icons enabled, can go to map, use the protractor to gain the AOB by measuring the angle of the targets bow to the submarine(bow if using bow tubes, stern if using stern tubes). Enter this into the AOB dial.

Third-Range. To get a solution fed into the TDC(Torpedo Data Computer) quickly, go ahead and hit send to TDC button for the speed and AOB. Use to dial to turn an estimated range and send to TDC. Then hit the Position Keeper(PK) button on the TDC. Further observations can use stadimeter, radar etc to enter better range estimates. You are now tracking the target.


Fourth(if have time) recheck your fire control data. If have time, check their speed, check for any last minute changes. Make sure tube outer doors are open. Not being open delays firing and can cause misses.

Fifth- Methods of aim. Okay, you have a good solution, time to fire. Outer doors are open? How to aim? I use to methods used by actual US skippers. One is the traditional final bearing sent via periscope or TBT to TDC and fired. Wait 6-10 seconds but typically 10 on most mid to large sized targets. This creates a spread. The PK on TDC is continuously updating the fire control info. Alternately, you can use the spread dial on the TDC. Fire on aimed at middle of target, use dial to adjust 1 degree starboard, one degree aft etc.

Second method, which Richard O Kane typically used is to aim torpedoes as individual shots, meaning a new bearing sent to TDC for each shot, even if on the same target. Plan to fire three torpedoes on a mid sized merchant? Send final bearing to TDC, fire one at middle of target. Move scope crosshairs to forward mast of target, send bearing and fire two, place crosshairs on aft mast , fire three.

Hope this helps. Not as difficult as it seems at first. Of course all kinds of variables but these basics will help.

the pain in the butt is setting range over 1200 without that mod mentioned

Though the quick 90 is so absolutely satisfying in its results and I use it a lot. I tend to believe the way the tools in SH4 are used to set up the 90 are a bit of the stretch of the imagination in their "exactness", especially the 3 minute pencil/compass combination to find the speed.

Have you ever tried building TGT DIALS TO PK FIX? It might be just what the doctor ordered... lol Even better is CapnScurvy's separate range dial, as in his OTC, coupled with Nicolas and ddrgn's mods. As Gray Lensman states though: "I tend to believe the way the tools in SH4 are used to set up the 90 are a bit of the stretch of the imagination in their 'exactness'". But even still, I manage to miss quite often... lol :har:

I agree. I wish they had found a better way. Even with mods the asking the crew for speed based on periscope observations never works properly, which is a shame as it would be more realistic method, basically how worked in real life.

However, the pencil/compass with contacts is a great learning tool. Like I said, I often play without contacts and can plot using pencil/compass with great accuracy. Seasoned enough to "eyeball" the speed as well, in most cases.

I rewatched this video again now that I've had plenty of play time under my belt and it was rather interesting to note some things that I missed earlier (a few years back). Kinda like you, when I first watched it, it appears to be missing something in the details.

After identifying the ship type (which he sends to the TDC), he used the stadimeter to give him a range readout. What's missing when he does this is he's not showing that he is marking a point on the Nav map that corresponds to the relative bearing from the sub and the distance obtained from the stadimeter. When he does the second mark, he does the same thing marking a second point on the Nav map that again corresponds to the relative bearing. (Note this could be done even without Map updates enabled, which is far more realistic). He now has a course marked on his Nav map for the enemy ship which he determined to be north.

It's also possible he already knew the course was North, since his video doesn't show any interruption (back/forth) to the Nav Map.

At this point in the video he just tells you that he determined the course to be North and uses that to adjust the AOB value for the TDC.

If he timed the marks to be exactly 3 minutes apart, he also obtained a close reading for the speed for the TDC.

What was really interesting for me, (that I missed for some reason earlier), was his adjustment of the AOB dial in the (upper right corner of the screen) to make the TDC ship pointer (on the upper left corner of the screen) correspond with a course of due North (marked on the dial and not pointing straight up). Before, I had always just adjusted the AOB (upper right corner) to correspond to where my lead angle setting was when I was lined up to shoot (generally a zero gyro shot on a fast 90, but sometimes an angled zero gyro shot), not really understanding it's usefulness for the TDC combined with the red Position Keeper button which I never use because it would foul up my shot. It probably fouled up my shot because I wasn't adjusting the AOB like Werner did to make the TDC target ship point in the direction of its course.

Hope this is not too confusing. I couldn't find any other more detailed tutorials in regards to how to manually set up a shot like Werner's video. He's good. This makes me want to retry the manual (no map update) method myself. LOL

In most cases you don't have to update the AOB once the PK in enabled. That was the major advantage of US TDC is had the PK section which continuously updated torpedoes until moment of firing. Of course, it depends on how accurate the information entered was. I have had to "dive and fire" multiple occasions, so firing on last bearings alone while under water and thanks to PK it keep data updating, scored four out of four hits from 2200 yards last time. Actually a pretty cool feature and glad it is in the sim.

Taking it a step further, with the 3d TDC and radar mod in TMO, have scored hits based on radar information alone at night on surface from 7500-8500 yards. (Large convoy screen unable to get in close) . PK played a role in this for sure.

That was the interesting part about Werner's video. He wasn't really adjusting the AOB per se, he was just using the AOB adjustment dial to initially align the heading of the enemy ship on the TDC to its course (North) and then the rest of his video showed the TDC/PK combination automatically allowing for own ship course changes as you say. I overlooked that usage when I viewed the video a couple of years back.

Got ya. I didn't watch the video(recently anyway) and misunderstood what you were saying.

I am getting errors when attempting to download that file also, but that is for the v1.4 game and the v1.4 of RFB anyway.

Thank you very much, Gray Lensman. I think you exactly tried to do what I asked: fill in the gaps that WernerSobe left out because I couldn't understand where he got his conclusions/information from.

However, it is still a little bit difficult to understand without seeing it happening in front of me. I have been thinking about this and perhaps you or someone else is willing to help me in the folllowing way: we go to Discord and I go to Twitch (or YouTube) and I stream my game. Then you can tell me how it should be done. Could that be an idea?

I look forward hearing from you.

I haven't done this manual targeting much myself and after viewing Werner's old video, I'm just now trying to implement some of the things I caught when I revisited it. I seem to have a little difficulty making the stadimeter measurement work right. The mouse moves the "image" when I try to click the TDC stadimeter button, giving me an incorrect reading. Gotta sort that. I'm not set up for discord or twitch either.

To Gray Lensman: I can help with Discord and on Twitch you only have to watch me play. Then through Discord you can tell me what to do.

If you got sorted out how Werner did it (I think you could call this the way the developers intended to have this game played), let me know. However, if you don't want to help through Discord and Twitch (for instance), then let me know about it, too. Perhaps with some direct questions I can still figure it out.


To the others who replied: I'm sorry that I'have singled out Gray Lensman's reply from all of the others. I think that your methods are of course good, but I would first like to try the way the game is set up to be played. I will look into the others ways when it is necessary for me to be able to enjoy the game.

The actual "SilentHunter4 Manual.pdf" file found in the Support folder of the game has an OK series of instructions for targeting, as the game does it, and isn't a bad place to start reading. If you really want to do some in-depth reading (I know, I know, bad pun), then check-out the real SUBMARINE TORPEDO FIRE CONTROL MANUAL on the https://maritime.org/uss-pampanito/ site, one of several good sources of old information.

Just because I was able to point out what I thnk Werner was doing and not mentioning doesn't mean I'm proficient at his method just yet. LOL. I've played SH4 on/off for several years now and spent all that time lining up Dick O'Kane fast 90s (close in 500-700 yards), mixed in with the occasional Cromwell 45 AOB attack on convoys and now toying with the Vector Analysis Attack Rules, none of which required the use of the Stadimeter which Werner uses. Hard to break from these techniques and they were also historically valid, though maybe the vector analysis method not so much. So far, the few times I've attempted to use the Stadimeter (after reviewing his video above) for range finding, my results are way off and trying to click on the TDC button when the second image of the ship is placed just right has been frustrating since it wants to move on me when I go to click the TDC stadimeter range input button.

Any clues as to how to lock the image in place while moving the mouse to the TDC input button would be helpful. When I click the mouse button as you would to remove the mouse focus from the scope view the second image disappears before I can click the input button on the TDC. Probably doing something incredibly simple wrong. LOL

Basically, until I get proficient at Werner's method, I'm just not your guy yet, sorry.

I'll be glad to help once I am proficient, but at the moment, I've had to reinstall/restart the sim several times this week due to saved game contamination and therefore little time for experimenting with Werner's method other than my failed attempts to make the stadimeter reading read anywhere near the same as the on-map measurements.

Regards

Manual targeting
 

Hello Frisian Commander!
May I offer a few suggestions?

I play with only a few mods, mainly sound and some graphics. I play map contacts on, because in a real submarine the Captain has a tracking party that maintains a manual plot, so the map contacts "ON" feature simulates the work of the tracking party. If you play with map contacts off its a little more work for you but it can be done.
With map contacts on, speed is the ONLY critical data you have to collect. Angle on bow is not that important if you get into a proper firing position to begin with, with your own course perpendicular to the target's track or course and between 500-1,500 yards from the target's track.

If you have the speed accurately estimated and in proper firing position range is completely irrelevant.

I suggest you print a copy of the target book to make it easier to find what you want. I then put together a sheet with the profile of each type of target and the AVERAGE mast height for each. For example, the average mast height for a Japanese destroyer is 69'. If there are notable exceptions I make a note of it. For example, the average mastheight for a Japanese Battleship is 164' but the Kongo and Yamato have mastheight of 140. That way, if I know the target is a destroyer I use the average mastheight and do not have to worry about finding the exact class of destroyer. For a Large Tanker, the average mastheight is 98'. Medium freighter 78' and so on.
Using the map, draw a line representing the target's track (course). Maneuver your boat to a position ahead of the target and about 500-1,500 yards from the target's track. Mark an X on the current location of the target( at the tip of the bow)
Lower the scope. Wait at least three minutes. Raise the scope while looking at the map. as soon as the target's icon shows up on the map mark another x where it is and lower the scope. Measure the distance travelled and calculate the speed, then enter the speed in the TDC. I have a chart prepared for this purpose. for example, a target that travels 236 yards in one minute is moving at 7 knots. Enter the target speed in the TDC. Since you are already at approx a 90 angle to the target's track, set the angle on bow as best you can and enter the data. If you are off by a little bit it wont matter.
Depending on how much time you have, check the target speed a few times and make sure it has not changed course, keeping the scope up only long enough to allow the must current target position to show up on the map When the bearing on the target gets close to 0 degrees, (almost right in front of you) say at 340 degrees moving from left to right, or at 20 deg moving from right to left, make a final check with the scope. Mark the bearing with the TDC, set and enter the range, then down scope. Go to the TDC view and check to see of the tdc is correctly tracking the proper target, then fire your torpedoes.
A trick that you can use is to calculate how much lead you need to hit a target with the torpedo speed you are using. Once you figure that out, you can use the same amount of lead, in degrees, no matter what the range, as long as you are 90- degrees to the target's course. I have not used that method in a long time and I cant find the chart right now but it works. Not as much fun as doing it the long way.
I hope this helps!
Good Luck,
Joe S