and they call us "Astro turfers"
 

They call us tea baggers, asto turfers, angry mobs, manufactured and contrived 'hate' for the black man in office.

So whos 'manufacturing' things now?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...EeRQbxCC0TNZHN

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about Aaron Rodgers, as he is now an expert in the turf in the metrodome.:har:

Nevermind.:D

If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself.

But by all means, go ahead and let millions of people die because your corporate masters want to score cheap political points against the other side.

:har:

So whats to hide?

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/po...-63557217.html

Can you directly link an insurance company that has poured millions into whipping up a frenzy against healthcare reform? :hmmm:

I would think that the insurance industry would be against health care simply due to the fact of .. how in the hell are they going to compete with an industry that operates at a loss :shifty:

But yea I dont see any orginized efforts by 'big insurance' on this thing one way or the other. In fact there conspicuous by their abscence.

Of course the insurance companies are against healthcare sponsored by the government because no one can compete with the government. However, I did not see booths and banners sponsored by an insurance company at the march on Washington a few weeks ago. To be honest, I do not believe I have heard one peep from the insurance companies on this healthcare reform.

Keep being good little insurance company sheep:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11814.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125107323271252625.html

Dude, you said:

"If you think the insurance companies haven't poured millions of dollars into whipping up the masses against real health care reform, you're fooling yourself. "

The links you posted are mainly stories about the activism of private citizens, not company organized efforts.

Example:
Mr Lucas has a right to voice his opinion to his elected representative like anyone else. Although it seems inconvenient to the ruling party, Americans do not loose their right to free speech just because they have a personal stake in a particular political debate.

You should have mentioned the $380 million they have recently spent in their efforts to fight healthcare reform.

Actually no.
A little story about Mr Lucas going to a meeting does not negate that.

Fine, you can take it from Wendell Potter, ex-Cigna head of PR:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/profile.html

What am "teabaggers"?

What am "astro turfers" (sic)?

What am are de black man in de office?

Excuse me for my ignorance, I'm a foreigner - I haven't a clue what you're banging on about, SteamingWake. There are quite a lot of us who don't live in America. I am English-speaking, don't worry.

I don't know a thing about teabagging - sounds a bit suspect to me, really. Sure I saw something about it in a John Waters film during my student days.

Anyway, never mind that, that's not important - are you for the Scottish Socialist Party, the SNP, the Scottish Conservative & Unionist Party, the Scottish Liberal Democrats, or Scottish Labour, Mr Wake? That's what I'm talking about. There may be an independence referendum in the next few years.

It's happening in the country I live in, therefore it is the most important thing in the world. I'm typing about it right now, you know. Well, what do you think? That Alec Salmond, eh? Sean Connery on a banknote, what? Well, come on! Or are you one of these so-called "birthers", who thinks Sir Sean was born in Trinidad and is just faking the accent?

Steamingwake :har:

And a "Town Hall Tips memo" does not equate to "millions of dollars spent whipping up the masses".

That's a tad grand, don't you think?

I've never hidden the fact that I support some sort of universal health care, but millions of people are not dying because of a corporate approach. In fact, corporations are the single largest payers of health insurance in this country, helping to provide private insurance to MILLIONS of Americans. Furthermore, all Americans HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE - they just get billed for it and it goes on their credit.

As a result, I'd like to suggest that we dispense with the Michael Moore dramatics and approach the issue reasonably. Personally, I believe that some measure of universal health care should happen. I believe there should be a government option for catastrophic care, and I believe it is possible to create an economic system that can deter the overuse that leads to rationed care, while still not making standard care inaccessible.

But what does our idiotic Congress do? They write bills that are beyond convoluted and seem to only marginally decrease the financial burden of the individual, while making absurd promises out of hand (such as, it's cost neutral, it won't help lead to the elimination of private insurance, etc.).

Ultimately, mookie, your side is failing because they are flat out lying. Sure, they have good intentions - but the average American isn't so stupid as the buy the BS they're selling (cost neutral? REALLY???). Furthermore, the average American understands that they are proposing a dramatic change in the nation's healthcare landscape, all the while they clearly either have no grasp on the full cause/effect factor of the bill, or they do and are lying about it.

This is the least trusted Congress in American history, and they want us to trust them to dramatically and convolutedly change the very nature of something that so many of us have little problem with. And, they want to ram it down our throats, right on the tail of a failed stimulus package that constituted the greatest amount of government spending in HISTORY. And they want us to trust the predictive powers of the White House and a president who told us that the stimulus must be rushed through and doing so would prevent unemployment from rising beyond 8%.

The fact is that, especially regarding healthcare, the White House and Congress have no idea what the hell they are doing. Americans, by and large, are aware of the fact that they have no idea what the hell they are doing.

And that, my friend, is why there's a stiff resistance.

Ah.....That would be the $380 million spent then wouldn't it.

Eloquently put, Aramike. I don't entirely agree with you; I wouldn't favor a government option for healthcare of any kind, but reading your post was one of life's simple joys. I swear, if someone as level-headed and well-spoken as you ever gets put into public office, I might regain some faith in our political system.

As much as I hate the idea, I have to jump on the mookie-bashing bandwagon now. In all fairness, mookie is one of the most intelligent liberals I have ever met. If there was ever a hope for liberalism to really take root in the educated public, mookie would be its' scion. Come to think of it, if people like mookie were in office, I might not have such a problem with liberalism.

Unfortunately, this post is an exception. Think for a moment, mookie. We are talking about profit-driven healthcare entities here. Moreover, we are talking about successful (as in....profitable) healthcare insurance providers. The whole freaking insurance industry is based upon risk assessment and analysis. What do you think their natural response to even semi-nationalization of the healthcare sytem is going to be? They aren't going to simply watch as the state cannibalizes their business, they're going to lobby like hell to get into the state healthcare program.

What you call "real" healthcare reform is simply an open invitation for plutocracy and purposeful incompetence. It is an invitation to state- enforced monopoly; the worst possible kind of monopoly.

Are you impressed by the lacklustre systems of socialized healthcare employed by other nations? Are you oblivious to the nigh-universal desireability of the US healthcare system? Do you really think that our heretofore incompetent legislative branch is going to put in place an effective system? Did our legislative system suddenly become motivated by something other than personal gain?

Damnit, mookie, you are smarter than that. Why on God's green earth would you wish to replace an imperfect industry with a fiat imperfect industry!? At least we have a choice in a privatized healthcare sytem.
And don't give me any of that crap about so-called "government option".
Private interests are naturally going to gravitate towards the govenment option. They're paying for it already, so why shouldn't they use it? It is more cost-effective.

What you don't seem to see is how this legislation is perverting the market. The state is going to wreck any semblance of truth in price and supply and demand that remains.

You wouldn't let the state make grocery decisions for you for obvious reasons, so why would you let it make healthcare decisions for you? The state does not play by the same rules as we do. It is, by all measures, a plutocratic entity. It must be guarded against and watched with vigilance.

The state is not a genie which will magically effect reforms upon society. It is an entity that is as self-interested as any person or corporation, and one should be very careful when seeking its' aid.

The state does make grocery decisions for you.

I suppose since it costs the most it must be the best?

One would think that in a universally desirable system people would not be afraid to get sick. One would think that the main reason people go bankrupt would not be medical debt.

I don't believe that the healthcare system in the US is either the best or the worst in the world. The system in this country is fairly awful right now, but I don't know anyone who's going broke because of medical bills. You pay for hospital care if you don't have insurance, but the maximum you can pay in any one year is €750, regardless of treatment. And if you can't afford that, the government pays it. Friend of mine had a serious heart attack on Friday, two operations later and he's back at home doing fine. Not exactly a nightmare.
Other countries do it better than Ireland, though. Thinking of France/Netherlands.