So will re-sending speed data also re-send bearing data?
 

Its been rumored but Im not sure if its been confirmed. Will unlocking the target, moving my scope to aim at various parts of the ship and re-sending speed data also send the new bearing also?

As said many times before, not being able to yell bearing info to the TDC operator or not having the TDC reference periscope bearing for TDC data really makes aiming torps at portions of the ship more complicated and inaccurate then it ought to be.

My understanding that one could independently change each bit of TDC data as it ran/tracked a solution. Not having a separate "bearing" capture function is really handi-capping advance skipper fire control. Granted this function would likly have to be seperate from the TDC. Maybe a hot-key or tool-bar option.

I agree we need both, a means to observe and check relative bearings and a means to input bearings. SH1 had this feature using the spacebar.

Frank
:cool:

Pressing the red button on the stadimeter "page" sends new bearing, there is no need to take a new height. The TDC then updates on the bearing only; range, speed and AOB stays the same.

Just tried it in a test mission :up:

the answer is, it depends whether you use position keeper or the scope for bearing update.

When you have the position keeper deactivated. Your bearing is automaticly updated by your scope direction in real time. The moment you activate the position keeper, it will first disconnect the scope from bearing update and calculate the latest known bearing further based on firing solution. Then it doesnt matter where you aim at, as long your position keeper is activated the torpedos will go for the interception point given by position keeper not the scope.

The problem you have is not about updating bearing. You just use the position keeper way to often. Actualy you dont need to use the position keeper at all when you go for target visualy. Position Keeper is just a nice tool to "predict" bearing based on firing solution when you cannot, or dont want to update bearing with the scope. For visual firing solution its rather a hindrance then help, specialy when you go for special parts because PK ignores bearing given by the scope.

Try this: Forget the position keeper. Create a firing solution. Unlock the target and aim for a special part just as you did in SH3 and see what happens.

I don't use the PK at all and I have to update my bearing by pressing the "Send to TDC" button on the stadimeter. If I don't, or try anything else but that button, all my torps head right back to the last bearing I had.

youre right ive just tested it. It does not update bearing on the run from the scope. Which is definetely a bug because historicaly TDC was connected tot he scope and was provided with bearing from the scope in real time.

That might explain the chronometer issue. Maybe its not the chronometer broken but the scope. Of course you will not get any speed calculation when you have no bearing change.

ps.: and yes it does update bearing by resending speed

I messed around last night in port and did a ghost solution (no ship, just data) and updating speed didnt update the bearing. It changes the torp gyro if i change the speed, but thats it. I assume it would apply with an actual ship too.

I'll try the range input with out using the stadimeter and confirm it. Im surprised the torp solution/gyro is updated after turning of the PK...that doesnt make sense to me(I could be wrong), I thought the PK not only showed estimated target data for reference, but was also key for keeping the gyro updated up until launch. I'd think turning off PK would also turn off updates to the torp gyros and locking in a rapidly degarding solution until you inputted new data to overwrite the last solution.

The Position Keeper feature was created because the real sailors only had Manual targeting. Getting the data for the solution (bearing, range, AOB and speed) is time consuming and getting a new set of data can ruin the older set. So they did it once, activated the PK and retracted the periscope as it can be detected by radar. They raised the periscope once a minute to check if the first solution is still ok and updated the components only if needed. If the solution was good after 3 such attempts, the torpedo was good to fire.
The position keeper is reinitialized every time you resend one of the components to the TDC. On manual targeting, sending the range also sends the bearing (as it says in the tooltip of the Send button).

When you use Automatic targeting and Position Keeper, you usualy point the periscope to the center of the ship, activate the PK and use the spread angle to aim the torpedo more at the front or the back of the target. You can see the effect of changing the spread angle in the attack map.
The position keeper is reinitialized every time you turn it off and then back on again.

The spread angle is useful on manual targeting also, since you can change the torpedo's course without altering the solution (and/or the PK) in any way :up:.

I don't understand where people get the notion that the periscope/TBT whatever was connected to the TDC full time and updated bearing all the time?

All my data seems to point that it was not so. Sure, this was the way things were done in u-boats, thank you very much :) we got that right in SH3.

But in US Boats it was different. So surely you'd like to do it "as in real life". After all, you wouldn't want gyro angle-capable torpedoes in British boats, if we ever do them, would you?

If anyone has hard evidence proving that bearing was constantly updated, pease post it here, but so far I have yet to see something like that.

I don't think a constant bearing update is what is in question. People are just wondering which "send to" button updates the bearing.

The scope was not linked in any way to the TDC, an in SH4 there is no "target bearing imdicator dial". An actual TDC generated a solution based off of what we input; speed-range-AOB...thats it. You "match" generated bearing from TDC with actual bearings on an observation, this "checks" the solution. The only indication that we get is torpedo gyro angle, and quite frankly thats not useful except to shoot when gyros are or close to zero for max accuracy.

Frank
:cool:

Naw, im not saying we should be feeding constant bearing data to the TDC, just that we should be able to send new bearing data at any time. Weither that should be a physical TDC feature or a key function is up for debate, but the "bearing" option is much needed.

Also, I should mention that this is for manual targeting when one wants to aim a specific parts of the ship.

As said above, the PK just takes a solution determined by input data and provides a running second by second update to the gyros based on that solution and ownship movement. The ability to change the bearing on the fly allows for the data and solution to remain the same except for the small change in bearing that allows for slight gyro adjusments so we can aim at specific parts of the target. Its like adding a spread angle to the original solution sort of, but much more accurate.

I'll settle for re-submitting the range as a work around provided it doesnt alter the actual range data for the original solution.

You send the bearing and range together from the scope and TBT. So you do change the range currently determined by the PK.

Frankly, I don't think that's a problem.

As for the bearing indication, I beg to differ:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1...inginfovx0.jpg

Correct for u-boats, not correct for US subs, the scope and TBt were not contected so the guy on the scope had to call out "mark" and the crew would read the bearing and then set the TDc manually.

You can also aim for special parts using spread. Lets say you want to hit a target at about first mast which is counting 6 small marks (from center while locked in high zoom) to the right. So basicly you can set up spread to 1,25° to the right and the torpedoe should hit about the mast assuming the solution is not to much flawed.

from manual:

zoomed small marks are 0,25° large marks 1°
in wide view small marks are 1° large marks 4°

Well I'll be...I did not know that lil hot spot was there! Ok then ...I stand corrected! I will be happy now to use that feature:up: (I'd still prefer the SH1 TDC.... )

Huh? Did this come with the 1.2 patch?? Awesome. Why did not anyone mention it till now? Would give me reason to install the patch. I'm still on 1.0 and don't have any problems with it that would have been fixed in one of the patches. Now, this bearing readout is what I was hoping/praying for since day one. :D

My understanding is that the true bearing and bearing are just talking about the same thing. The true bearing is based on the true or magnetic bearing referenceing north, while teh bearing is referencing relative bearing to the bow.

That doesnt allow me to take a ship which as a given AoB, speed, range with the center of that ship at a bearing with respect to my bow of lets say 350. That will give me a specifc solution to hit the center of the ship. If I want to hit the stern of that ship which would be at a different bearing with respect to my bow, like 348, I'd have to set the TDC to have the same AoB, speed and range, but I need to be able to set into the TDC a bearing of 348 to get the subtle change in solution and gyros to hit the ship's stern. Now that may not be a function tied to the persicope, it may require a perosn actually physcally change that on the TDC, but it should be available in some capacity.

Unlike teh game, the skipper wasnt the only one perfroming tasks for fire control on the ship. I should be able to point my periscope at a bearing and hit a toolbar button or keyborad button and order my TDC operater to input the new bearing data without fear of corrupting any of the other data. That means he reads the periscope bearing off of a repeater, a meter visible on the scope an veiwable from within the command room or by simple having the skipper yell the bearing the scope is currently on for the operator to input.

Out of simplicity of modeling and I could see the feature being implemented as something that looks like physical TDC feature if though it wasnt. At this point I can almost careless how they implement it aslong as the function is there.

p.s. using the spread is in no way the same thing, nor is it even close to a substitute.

I just checked out the use of sending range data to update the bearing for accurate aiming. It seems to work but it corrupts the range data by inputing the original range determined at the beginning of the contact when data was first placed in the TDC. This may cause problems with longer shots, or very close shots against fast movers.

It may have comprimised a shot I had against a BB. I was less than 1000yds away and the its speed was high, the range inputed when I tried the range input work around did me no good since my last range input was about 2000yds, it likley threw the gyros setting way off.

Gyro Angle
 

Well gentlemen, I have to make clear one thing, which is ABSOLUTELLY TRUE, and I know it very well because of my service in the greek (american built) BALAO class submarines.

There was no connection of the periscope to the TDC!

BUT!!!! In the american submarines of WW2 you COULD set the gyro angle of your choice independantly from TBT-TDC-ETC by using a device right on the tube. That is because in case of a broken down TBT-TDC the X.O. calculated the gyro angle manually and was directlly set to the torpedo!

And this must be patched/moded in the game!

I personally calculate manually the fire bearing and the gyro anlge. In order to set my desired gyro angle I just turn the sonar wheel to the relative bearing=gyro angle and click on SEND BEARING button. So I have my gyro angle. Untill now I had only few misses because of speed bad estimate. By manually calculating the range is absolutelly useless!