Everything else aside, and it seems fairly solid that much of the Seawolves content is pirated, I wouldn't buy a mod pack from this OSSI/Deathping guy because he's simply an idiot. What kind of "businessman" markets his product by harrassing his potential customers?

I think the best course of action is to just ignore the guy and he'll go away.

Probably.

At least no one here will buy, which is my only real concern.

Best anyone can do is ensure people have an opportunity to be educated on the situation.

Someone should really collect this lamers posts. It would make a funny archive of nonsense to post about whenever someone mentions X1.

:up:

Oh my! :88)

Wullfman - I don't know what your problem is, but my question was just that: a simple question, with no dig or criticism intended.

My point is that while such a CD has good intentions(to raise money for modders), how many people will actually buy, when all these mods are downloadable from this and other sites and have already been acquired by many people anyway?

Sir - I meant no offence by my question, and would appreciate a reasonable response.

You have complained of a 'mob mentality' on this forum - but now you are the one being unreasonable.

Hawkers :cry:

Yes, you are.


Hawkers :D

i do agree with some that the modded material does not belong to YOU. It is a product of UBI and without UBI you couldnt do it, making a addon with some new features and some possible features "close" to that of mod makers doesnt quite mean their stealing. even though that is up to discussion. But i mean, im looking foward to the addon and will probably definately buy it. Counter-Strike started out a mod then became its own stand-alone product that you can buy. Though the situation is a bit different i know, i still think some should calm down. People have the same ideas sometimes, and whoever gets it out their first, well, they get credit. You modders are great, SH3 isnt SH3 without you but before u rant and rave lets wait for some more info to come out. I havent seen any previews of features on IGN etc.. So i really dont know what it contains, unless you guys have seen that, i dont think you should complain much, and if you have seen it. Please give me a preview link!!!

I've been following this (and other related) threads for the last couple of days and it seems to me that selling something that is free and without the permision/recognition of those who contributed to the creation of mods to enhance a great game is just tight-fisted and shifty online-pikeyness- I wonder, will X1 Software be coming round offering to tarmack my driveway anytime soon? :rotfl:
I don't usually visit the Ubi fora, prefering instead our very own dear subsim.com for reasons (I think you'll agree) that to most will be abundantly clear. Having read some of the slagging going on 'over there' and the improper comments directed in a personal manner towards some of our members here, it is clear that some kind of 'signature solidarity' is called for :)
To that end I applaud Jace11 and his discovery of a "rather fetching" banner and show my tacit support for this issue.

Welcome to the 'Mob'. :lol:

Jeezus some folks have looked into it (got uhh a copy) and it has at least 11 if not more mods that were taken without authorisation? What's the matter with you?

BTW deathping I know from UBI..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums...233#7061020233

We don't need such trash here.

have u noticed his forum has been removed from his site?

I think it's sad what X1 is not only doing to SH3 but to this community as well. This used to be such a "quiet and friendly" place but now people start insulting each other. :down:

Relax everybody. Just don't buy Seawolves and spread the word. But don't let this addon 'destroy' our community. :dead:

IMHO this community is too strong to be destroyed by the 'Seewolves Mod Scam' - there are much more interesting things coming up than a commercial repack of things freely available... :D

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This community is certainly too strong to be destructed by an Experimental Mk. 1...
The Avon Lady and her people were insulted by Deathping, but see how disinguished her reaction was (and she has won fame as a figter on the General Forum).All who shouted Dive... dive... dive... can blow their tanks.
:D

Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting. :lol:

I'm not exhausted..thanks for your post. Let me add a few comments though.

Not three, but eleven unauthorized mod inclusions have been detected so far. And the list (discussions and evaluation is going on at places you may not have access to...I don't know) is getting longer almost any minute.


I understand that you (me too..) would like to have a 'better' online world. But this is a discussion forum and there are things that have to be discussed - at least a lot of people think so...

And AFAIK the 'Seawolves' issue currently has not been solved yet. The only fair solution X1 could come up with would be to release only their proprietary work (which would easily fit on a floppy...) and to apologize publically.

From all public and - the more - private conversations and disputes with X1's owner and folks afiliated with X1 I doubt his will ever happen.

If I'd publish all private BS that was sent to me by X1 the last days everyone would understand easily that the ONLY goal of his company is to make a fast buck...: Nothing but disrespect for the gamers, modders and this community was shown by them, and the personal insults in their mails are simply...disgusting.

I only listed the 3 that I could remember off the top of my head- I'm at work right now- but I figured 3 was more than enough to prove the case. Frankly even one example is enough.

Agree with you 100%, and this MUST be discussed- but the discussion was starting to drift from the main point, which is X1's (apparent) theft of others' work. My post was an attempt to remind everyone who our anger should be directed toward.

X1's attitude has been manifested clearly. It is arrogant and offensive to say the least. If I tried to offer up Shadow's Ultimate Pack, containing New and Improved Convoys, a Real U-Boat, and all new Harbor Traffic, you all would rightfully hound me out into the streets. But this is why I tried to defuse the situation which was starting to arise...especially with Deathping's additions. Once the flame wars start, the focus will shift away from the main issues.

I wanted to clarify what exactly we're arguing for/against here. It's not a case of "us" and "them", it's what will happen to X1 as a result of their actions.

Hopefully no one thought I was attempting to censor the debate, or inhibit anyone's freedom of expression; it would be of great benefit to X1 and/or like-minded individuals for us to lose focus and cohesion due to a degeneration into personal attacks.

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Thanks Shadow9216 for your wise postings.
I have no issues with Wulfmann nor should anyone. Wulfmann have defended his position - which is his right - and is not the cause of the chaos.
You stated "Now we are joined by Deathping..."
I do not agree. First of all this community cannot be joined by Deathping because his statements are unworthy to this community.
Secondly I have the idea that his posting was a "One ping only!" ("The Hunt for Red October" in case I am misunderstood) and that he will not even try to join us anymore.
As so often in sub(sim) warfare: don't use your active sonar!
The solidarity and restrained shown by all who took part in this discussion, including Wulfmann and The Avon Lady, has made the community stronger and the topic easier to discuss.
We may not all be good friends, we may not all agree, but we are certainly a community.
Arguments belong at the General Forum (where I'm heading now).
:D

9216, you would certainly be tough in a court room, LOL In a good way!!

Fact, I don't argue with my enemies. I only passionately debate my friends, physical or virtual. I don't like seeing my friends getting carried away in a negative situation, at least before actual facts have been established.

I am still not convinced X-1 intentionally tried to steal and hide that they were doing such to gain monetarily. It makes no logical sense. It would discredit them to the point of no gain to loss and hurt any chance of future involvement.

It is also possible they were ignorant to assume they could package this stuff up and offer to the masses that are not install savvy. Anyone that believes most user are able to figure out modding should note how many of us have trouble, "Sie Experten".. It is not a bad idea but they obviously erred in their approach. That is trying to diplomatically give them the benefit of the doubt until it is proven they acted with malice intent.

Please note my labels of fanatical mob mentality. That is what it looks like. That does not mean I think anyone here is a Nazi or member of the KKK. Many decent people were incited to do the work of these groups by inflamed rhetoric. Many have become those decent people. Proof???? I asked for proof and was promptly labeled one of them there enemy people, ya, he must be one of them, Get Wulfmann, LOL It really is kind of funny to me!!!!

I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.

It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.

Be back in a few minutes.

Wulfmann

The word is "amateurs". :yep: Possibly "shysters" is appropriate as well.
All's well, TG! :up:

We're all watching live over the Net, while the spaghetti boils. :D

'Seawolves' contains Mods by ...
 

You can actually see a launch from where you are???!!!