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- - Ferguson (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215056)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2234794)

I think the big problem was that the family pathologist only got the naked body, so he couldn't test the clothing for gunshot residue, which puts a bit of a limit on available data.

Meanwhile in St. Louis another man has been shot, and killed, although this one was wielding a knife at the time, it's been described by eye-witnesses as 'suicide by cop'. Now...call me old fashioned here but...does any American cop carry a taser? I can't help but think that using one of the pistol tasers that we have here in the UK might be a slightly better way of subduing a non-firearm armed threat. :hmmm:

That's correct and he noted it in his report. As for the kid's body, no gunshot residue was found.
There's always the possibility that the local ME sanitized the corpse.

They do carry Tasers and some have used them to kill innocent people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then there's the SWAT team that busted into a home to serve a warrant on a suspected drug dealer and tossed a flash/bang grenade into an occupied playpen, severely injuring a little boy. Not to mention their numerous door busting antics at wrong addresses. The boys in blue have gone full tilt military with the lame excuse of fearing for their own safety. Did they not read the job description before they applied!???:stare:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2234794)

..does any American cop carry a taser? I can't help but think that using one of the pistol tasers that we have here in the UK might be a slightly better way of subduing a non-firearm armed threat. :hmmm:

Nope a taser is also a deadly weapon (unfortunately) often by accident to victims with a previous heart condition. Ergo I won't carry one and in the incidence of a knife or 'perceived deadly threat' the officer may respond at the 'highest level'. The more so after fellow Napan Mehserle made his fatal error in the BART station by confusing the two pistol grips. I made my current employer quit using them to save him on lawsuits. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2008/07/tasr-j25.html

Quote:

According to data collected by Amnesty International, at least 500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with Tasers either during their arrest or while in jail. Amnesty International recorded the largest number of deaths following the use of Tasers in California (92), followed by Florida (65), and Texas (37). The Oklahoma City Police Department led all law enforcement agencies in deaths (7) following by Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, Harris County Sheriff’s (Tx), Phoenix, Az and San Jose, Ca., all with six deaths.

Quote:

Neal Stevens: I guess it helps to put onesself in a cops shoes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2234809)

Cops may use tasers, but if someone is coming at them with a knife, they generally don't risk missing with a a taser. Now, if he was standing there with a knife, he would've gotten zapped....

READING: parts 1 and 2; the way it is still taught: http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapo...-valid-Part-1/

Quote:

For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons. An average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet. The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack." Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.
http://www.policeone.com/policeone/d...ges/strel3.gif The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round.The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/d...ges/strel3.gif For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/d...ges/strel3.gif
Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

This is what we are taught at academies SOP; and anything within 21 feet (7 yards) is of the keenest interest threatwise to a street officer. I doubt I (age 63) can clear at 1.7 seconds these days, against a teenager with a rusty HIV infected spoon shambling at me in 2.5 seconds to ask if I've got lighter so he can 'cook up'...and that has happened.:doh:

Fair points. :yep:

I guess the US police relies on a power of fear rather than respect. :hmmm:

Where in the world do criminals show police respect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2234852)

Fair points. :yep:

I guess the US police relies on a power of fear rather than respect. :hmmm:

I get mixed on it. Watched 100's of youtubes regarding cops and have seen numerous times I felt cops overreact, even with force. Like if a guy starts reaching when cop says "hands up" and blast the guy only to find it was a phone...

But then...all those other videos of cops showing respect, being nice, trying to diffuse and the criminal take quick advantage and kill the cop.

However, many situations could be avoided it cops followed the constitution, which they often don't.

I meant towards the general public, I mean when a police officer in the US tells you to do something, is it done out of respect for the law and its enforcers, or a fear that you'll be shot if you don't? :hmmm:

Still, in lighter news it seems that the Westboro Baptist Church has brought its message of love and tolerance to Ferguson...with any luck the police and rioters will team up to kick them out. :03:

Oh my goodness:o. Egypt telling the US to be cautious. Don't think that is going to sit too well with Obama's Administration.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GJ0Z420140819

A second shooting but the protests appear to be more controlled and peaceful:

Quote:

Hundreds of people have taken part in renewed protests in Ferguson in the United States following the shooting by police earlier this month of an unarmed black teenager.

So far the demonstrations have remained peaceful.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28863106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Tonner (Post 2234923)

Oh my goodness:o. Egypt telling the US to be cautious. Don't think that is going to sit too well with Obama's Administration.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GJ0Z420140819

The international reaction has been, amusing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The New China News Agency said hours before Nixon ordered National Guard troops into Ferguson, "Obviously, what the United States needs to do is to concentrate on solving its own problems rather than always pointing fingers at others."[111]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ermany.svg.png Der Spiegel posted an interview with Marcel Kuhlmey, professor in the department of security management at the Berlin University of Economics and Lawa, a security expert, who asserted that what happened in Ferguson could never happen in Germany, stating that "In the U.S., it seems to me, the police are far quicker to resort to guns. Even at the training stage, there is a much heavier emphasis on shooting [than in Germany]".[111] Zeit Online described the incident as an example of deep-rooted racism in the U.S, concluding that "the situation of African-Americans has barely improved since Martin Luther King."[112]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f_Iran.svg.png The Islamic Republic News Agency, commented, "[V]iolence has become institutionalized in the U.S. in recent years, but since President Obama, the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner, came to the White House, the violence has intensified, and now it has erupted against blacks in Ferguson."[111]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Egypt.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Turkey.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...estine.svg.png Protesters in the Middle East have expressed support for protesters in Ferguson, using social media to equate the protests and police response to conflicts in Egypt, Turkey, and the Gaza Strip, and offered advice on how to deal with tear gas.[113]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Russia.svg.png The Russian Foreign Ministry stated "our American partners [have] to pay more attention to restoring order in their own country before imposing their dubious experience on other nations" and that the U.S. "has positioned itself as a 'bastion of human rights' and is actively engaged in 'export of democracy' on a systematic basis", but that "serious violations of basic human rights and barbaric practices thrive" in the country.[111]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Spain.svg.png El Mundo wrote that Obama's "words of peace and reconciliation are perceived by many activists as inadequate and almost treason to a situation they see as a direct result of slavery and racial segregation laws that were in force until 1965."[112]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Lanka.svg.png The Sri Lankan Daily News opined: "For the U.S. to issue a travel warning for Sri Lanka does seem odd at a time when there are race riots in Missouri."[111]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ingdom.svg.png Abigail Chandler of the newspaper The Metro wrote that "[w]hile the [London riots] were at their worst, people were calling for rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannons to be used against the rioters, Ferguson is a living example of why we should be immensely grateful that those tactics were never used during the U.K. riots."[112]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna (Post 2234935)

A second shooting but the protests appear to be more controlled and peaceful:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28863106

It does seem to be steadily losing steam, if the police are looking to play the long game, waiting until it burns out rather than attempt to clamp down on it and risk it flaring up again, then it might be paying off.
There's going to be a LOT of analysing of this, I think it's probably one of the best documented riots in American history, so there's going to be a lot of information from both sides of the police tape to go over and think about when it's all said and done.

In other news, Choo Choo! All about the riot train!
https://vine.co/v/M3Y9AnXJ6gx

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossMark (Post 2234966)

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

Depends on the day, some days they have been, some days they've been very hands off. Last night was an example of that, there were a handful of clashes, but nothing compared to two nights ago when the curfew was in effect.
They seem to be running at it in different ways, trying to see what works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2234968)

I think you missed the context Jamie :03:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna (Post 2234975)

I think you missed the context Jamie :03:

http://i.imgur.com/LspP1rA.jpg

Quote:

Police being heavy handed and over reacting??

I was thinking along the lines of the national coal miners strike :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna (Post 2235029)

I was thinking along the lines of the national coal miners strike :)

Coal not Dole?

Still, at least it hasn't got to Peterloo levels yet. :yep: