Nice try at a deflection. You said that you don't think any other nation uses torture on the same scale as the US. That idea is patently false and the fact that you make it shows that you haven't researched this issue one damned bit but have grabbed onto it in order to further your constant demonization of America.


Ironically, you referred to the "scale" of US torture but never actually described the scale. I suspect you have no clue but have decided to just go on the premise of "America bad" as always. Not all torture is the same. Frankly, I have no problem with waterboarding, fake executions, etc. Let's just say it really doesn't bother me if a career terrorist suffers from PTSD.

I *DO* have a problem with torture that involves physical disfigurement, though. And there are 13 nations in the world that have recently engaged in those activities fairly openly (guess who's NOT on that list? The United States, shocking right?).

Sorry dude, but your arguments have failed miserably, mainly as a result of your clear bias. You're trying to sway people on the simplistic idea of "torture bad". It's a bit more complicated than that however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_renditions

Does any other nation have this kind of system for global transportation of people to be tortured? I don't think so. This system also includes physical torture.

What is the point of this thread? To point out that torture is bad? Is it a black and white issue? Is one man's torture another man's interogation?

In the face of public execution, beheadings, 3000 lives lost, is moral equivilence the issue we should be discussing? Or, should it be defeating the foe which threatens us all?

Mock execution seems very mild in the face of groups and individuals, dedicating their lives to the wholesale murder of non-believers.

It's not just mock executions, it's also physical torture.

"groups and individuals, dedicating their lives to the wholesale murder of non-believers"

Who would that be, people from the Bible-belt? CIA, Blackwater or maybe the US military? Born again christians?

You seem to have issues with christian religions and are unable to see the difference between them and other philosiphies. The angels weep for you, and I will pray for you.

Wee-weed up

A few things:

- You can talk all you want about how terrorists deserve it when it comes to torture, but what about innocents? I'm sure there are people in CIA custody whose only crime was being in the wrong place in the wrong time. Just because some people who look like them have committed horrific atrocities doesn't mean that innocent people deserve to be tortured for it.

- Torture is ineffective at best, and counter-productive at worst. A person who is being interrogated under duress doesn't say what he knows, he says what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. You get a vicious cycle. The interrogator thinks that XYZ plot is about to happen. The detainee knows that the interrogator thinks XYZ plot is about to happen, even though XYZ plot is actually pure fiction. So in order to please the interrogator and avoid torture, the detainee tells the interrogator all about XYZ plot. The interrogator's belief in XYZ plot is reinforced. After a few interrogations like that, the interrogator will consider XYZ plot to be an indisputable fact, even though it's not.

- Torture can produce self-fulfilling prophecies. Suppose you've been wrongfully accused of being part of XYZ terrorist group, and you're detained and tortured for it. If your captors realize their mistake and release you, what's the first thing you're going to do? Join XYZ terrorist group!

- Maintaining the moral high ground is vital to any fight against terrorists. Most terrorist groups aren't defeated by their enemies - the groups defeat themselves. The groups overplay their hand and become excessively violent. That extreme violence ends up alienating the very people who the group relies upon for support, and the group implodes. That's what happened to the IRA, that's what happened to the insurgency in Iraq, and that's what's started to happen to the insurgents in Pakistan. These groups weren't defeated by torture, they were defeated because they lost the moral high ground, and thus public support, to their enemies.

As Americans, our values and ideals are vitally important to us in any war. They're the greatest weapon in our arsenal. We need to keep them strong in order for our country to stay strong.

A few counter-points:Your premise is faulty. Indeed, all steps must be taken to prevent the capture and subsequent custody of innocents. However, that does not mean we should just abandon the program.

Your premise is akin to saying that we shouldn't have prisons because some innocent people may be incarcerated in them. I suggest that we fix the system, not just abandon it.Complete rubbish.

For one, if it didn't work it wouldn't be used.

For two, that's not how interrogations go (you clearly don't know, because any professional would tell you that your sequence of events is silly at best). Also, even more silly is your idea that a person under the duress of torture can actually think clearly enough to figure out what the interrogator wants to hear.

The bottom line is that interrogators know somethings and don't know others. They use that information to ascertain a base of what can and cannot be believed.Sure, right ... do you have ANY facts to back this up?

I know of innocent people being released from prison and they don't just go and become outlaws, which is your premise.

The same could be said of many, many things that really don't work.

Such as?

What August said.

Besides, what facts do you have to support the claims that these methods just aren't working?

When they cease to produce results, the use of these methods will end.

Things that don't work (arguably), but are used/done anyway:

Witchcraft, chopsticks, business jargon cliches, homeopathy,
arguing with people on the internet, prayer, go-faster stripes,
political spin, global warming prevention, digital rights law,
trying to appeal to 'the youth', petitioning the SHIII devs.,
resisting arrest after your in the police station, invading Russia,
looking for answers in philosophy, passing unenforceable laws,
speculating about SHV features, etc.


I didn't make such a claim, but if someone else does the burden of proof
would be on those claiming that it did work.

It does work , just look at KSM...a little bit of water to stop him from being able to breath and straight up you have a confession.
OK so maybe he wasn't really responsible for all the crimes he admitted, but hey a confession is a confession.

Chopsticks work just fine for me and i'm not even Chinese.
Hindenburg would disagree with you about invading Russia.
Political spin won the last Presidential election.
Witchcraft works just fine for those who believe in it.
Homeopathy is a multi-billion dollar a year business.
Prayer does work because she got her period.

In order to prove your point you'll need better examples Letum!:up:

Other than the fact that you're clearly (hopefully) being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, do you have anything analogous to the topic?Umm, right. Either they have gained solid information from torture or they have not. We have 1000s of years of the former.

The seems to constitute the proof that it works.

It does not need to be analogous with torture because I am not contesting as
to whether or not torture works; I'm just contesting the argument you used
that has the format:

I don't care what you put in place of 'x', the argument doesn't work by
necessity because there are cases, such as some of those I listed, where
even if both premises where true, the conclusion would be false.