:hmmm: Webster might disagree with that assessment ... and rightly so.

Bug?


http://home.comcast.net/~sbse/images/sport_bug.jpg

Bug?

http://thailand-adventure.com/images/insects-5/bug.jpg

No, Webster is and has been way beyond fixing bugs for a long time. The name of his mod is only a holdover from the days when he was pretending to do nothing but fix bugs.

However, even then he was customizing the game beyond fixing bugs, as does everyone who loves this game and mods it. You'll recall that Webster, when he realized I'm right, sought to change the name of the mod. He, like Ducimus, Kapt Lehmann, LukeFF, AOTD Mad Max and all the rest, mod the games out of love for the games and to answer additional questions of "what if?"

Fixing the bugs is only a small part of any extensive mod. Sometimes, perhaps often, as in the case of the "why does the sonar work on the surface" whiners, when the research is done, we find that the devs had it right to begin with. Sonar did work on the surface and sonar operators were expected to develop contacts when surfaced.

Never mind that in that configuration, other methods, radar and visual sighting would find contacts first, the sonar still worked. Others, in the name of fixing bugs have eliminated all air attacks from the game. This is clearly wrong, but still was done with a straight face, in the name of bug fixes. The fact is that often personal preference is excused away as a so-called bug fix.

Personal preference has no need of such lame excuses. "It's my personal preference and I'm eliminating air attacks" is just fine and acceptable. Modders have a right to flavor the game any way they see fit and we have the right to choose which mod we will use. I choose to use TMO, RFB, GFO and FOTRS and love 'em all!

I have two significant experiences with simulators undergone modding:
- dangerous waters (DW)
- panzer general 2 (PG2)
- a database where i work

While for me (sorry Luftwolf and Amizaur) modding DW resulted in killing the fun and the simulator, it is the countrary in PG2 where little modding but first of all campaign creation helped keeping the game alive for more than 10 years.

DW was sufficently difficult as stock version to learn. The whole story is long and I don't know everything anyway. As a fact, the great majority of the people started playing with the MOD installed (multiplay). That's when i left (2 years ago +/-). One of the reasons was, I never managed to tune-up my knowledge to the ever coming new modifications because of theyr frequency, and later because of the game becomeing unplayable (to me) and unexplainably complex. To explain better, to tweaka little the array's sensitiveness or the platforms emitted noise results in the need of brand new tactics to be developed.

So, the modding community has an huge power, especially if the game is complex and not many people master it.

About Panzer General 2... basically it was not modified, it is 99% still the same game as the stock version (and still has bugs). What made it stay alive for so long, it was the community bringing up for example the so called Campaign Challenges and constantly producing new scenarios.

And i don't see it 100% correct and good, to tweak someone else's code without to have access to the whole code. Not having access to the whole code forbids to reconstruct the thoughts behind every choice...

Dangerous waters, yep !

Well I adjusted the params stated. And have been able to get within 800meters of a merchant and not get spotted (close enough), at night.

Sorry lurker but SH4 indeed notices when someone is decks awash, and fully surfaced. I found this during the test of which I mentioned above. When I surfaced I was immediately noticed, when with only the tower and tip of bow visible they did not see me. Do not quite know what controls this, but it is definite that it is a factor. This was a legitimate tactic for fleet boats as well as U-boats.

Also for those talking about thermal layers. They are indeed a barrier for sound waves, including asdic beams. The whole reason for diving deeper and deeper was to find that hallowed are where the sub disapeared to the asdic. It is not a mere 20% reduction but in fact a reduction to 20%. It also messed with the submarine's hydrophones though.

I understand wanting to make it hard, and that is fine. But please don't get angry at someone wanting to adjust parameters to make the game more realistic according to what they have read.

If was quite good doing a night torpedo surface attack like the actual gray wolves did. It became quite interesting when the first torpedo hit, and seconds later getting lit up by the star shells, and later spot lights.

It was just like the scene described and shown in Das Boot when they get spotted by the excorts.

In other words the simulation was realistic, and thrilling. Like a sim should be.

I am grateful for the work by the mods, but please realize, there are those that go for realistic as possible and are not looking for an impossibly hard game where the escorts already armed with unfair advantages (No degradation of deph charges with depth, being able to detect a sub at flank even when charges are going off. Being able to hear a sub even when moving at more than medium speed, and constantly firing off an omni directional asdic beam, even when a sub is not detected yet, or a sonar that is not effected by the target's vicinity to the sea floor.) getting more advantages like little to no degradation caused by thermal layers, or super sensitive, tin eared hydro phone operators.

Remember most German subs were lost to either surface or air action, not many were lost to depth charges dropped by destroyers.

I'll apologize again in case you missed it. I just thought it seemed arrogant at first and have realized my mistake. Good hunting.

Buddahaid

Regarding the sighting of decks awash submarines. I note that in all the books I have read on the U Boat in the Atlantic and books of the ace U Boat hunter/killer himself, Capt Johnnie Walker RN, U boats only showing conning towers were virtually impossible to spot, especially at night. They were able to close quite close to convoys at night pre attack and fire torps on the surface. U Boats during the 'happy time' off the east coast of America sat on the surface watching fun fair enjoyment at Coney Island and nobody spotted them, the same for U Boat commanders sailing in the reflective glare of the illuminated shoreline.

As I asked dcb:

Would you please provide the parameters your using in your test case:

1. Location ( Lat / Long )
2. Date and Time
3. Type of Escorts, Number of escorts, part of a group or a single unit
4. Type of Uboat

I'm not angry, you can make what ever changes you like to your personnel setup. I use to do it all the time with my SH3 setup

As I stated earlier, I was a Operations Specialist / Radarman in the US Navy for 23 years. I'm well aware of the thermal layer and how it effects sound underwater for both the sub and surface escort. However SH4 and the "real world" are two different things


Lastly

Why don't you download this and give it a "test drive"

http://wwwnew.filefront.com/13983377...for_OMv710.rar

as stated in my previous post, it is a SIM.cfg file I built from my "custom" SH3 install some time ago. I would recommend trying it out on the 'RUM 400921 U100' single mission. If you play your cards right you can "thread the needle" between the escorts and attack HX-72 up close and personnel. If your not happy with the results, just de-install it.

I may be mistaken on this but, Radar doesn't get effected by thermal layers because of the fact it is not used, nor can it be used, under water.

I also think that the asdic of the 40s was absolutely nothing compared to the whale brain smashing active sonar we have these days, and may be affected less by thermal layers and have far longer range. Sort of like comparing a match to a spot light.

As far as time and place of the incident where I crept up on a merchant before getting spotted. It was a campaign mission, off the coast of Africa, type IXb boat, around midnight, no moon. I saved before heading in, so one was the one where I surfaced after approaching decks awash, and then replayed the thing all the way through. The incident with the convoy was just played all the way through with one save before the engagement. I am currently re-overhauling that convoy as we speak.

Red Devil: I have been trying to convey this point many times. I read of this in Donitz's book when he described his attack on a convoy in WWI. He states getting almost right up to the hull of a passing freighter without being spotted. The term he used was "hull down", and describes this as flooding the deck, which prevented manning the guns, so I take this as the German version of the American "decks awash", which was used by several American and British skippers. My understanding of the U-boat was that the matte grey paint made the boat all but disappear in low light, and light fog conditions. Which is what made the surface torpedo so devastating, and absolutely without warning.

Buddahaid: I saw your previous apology, I thought I mentioned "no hard feelings" or something in one of my posts, if not then consider this...that. Good hunting to you too.

Yes 'hull down' and 'decks awash' are the same thing. A U Boat (U 131) surfaced in the midst of convoy HG76, still light, due to faulty hydrophones, he did not realise until he came on deck, they dived rather quickly but were never spotted. The hydrophones, by the way, had been installed by forced labour in Bremen!! Nuff said!

The two main give aways for surface ships to spot a U boat were the phosphorescent wash and 'huffduff' - direction finding equipment. Captain Walker's ships had this and, together with a triangulation from land, ccould pin point a broadcasting U Boat to within visible range. UBoat captains were obliged to send in regular lengthy weather reports, they hated this, knowing full well they were being detected. If a U Boat failed to radio in, after 3 days, it was listed as missing. Then, if they were lucky enough to return, a right royal roasting!

In spite of all this, their chances were slim - 75% of all U Boat sailors never went home. There is a beautiful example of the HF/DF direction finder used by Walker in the National Maritime Museum, Liverpool, in the Battle of the Atlantic section.

U 131

I don't believe radar has been brought up in this thread, why do you bring it up now ?

I'm playing with TMO at the moment and after 3 very interesting patrols in a Sargo class intercepting fast Task Forces (downed 3 battleships, 6 heavy cruisers, 3 light cruisers, various merchants with mark 10 torps :yeah:) I 'm preety happy with the difficulty. They seem to know I'm there and start zigzagging (radar?), they spot me at around 6-8000 yards during night time and 10k during the day. Since the US subs were so high and bulky it's no wonder. Submerged, they pick me up at around 4000 yards if I don't run completely silent, much more if i go at flank. However i'm way dissapointed by the escorts. I've had 5 DD's asdicking me around for about 20 minutes, and that was the worst case. I had to dive to an incredible 300 ft (about 90m) and they started depthcharching the poor whales :arrgh!:. So even though this is not a TMO thread, I'd like to know a few things:

- does the height/class of the sub matter for AI sensors? i guess it's the same as asking if decks awash really works.
- do ships listen "behind" them?
- what's the arc of the asdic? they seem to ping me even at 160 degrees.
- can they see you underwater if you're too close?
- do they hear you when you're above water? when do they get radar?
- does the height/class of the ship matter? Somehow I have a hunch that the battleships were the first to see me since they're so tall and have so many eyes.
- do escorts always run with asdic working? I met a lone "thing" in the middle of the ocean, dived deep (250 ft) and went silent(he hadn't spotted me yet), I went to 128x and suddenly i get a charge that kills me. And he was at my 340 constantly.
- and about that. Why can't we hear pings from far away to know which escorts are actively pinging.
- can they listen while they ping?
- how long after a DC run do they start listening again? I've had pinging resume after 20 seconds.
- does masking yourself with other ships sound work? In other words, can I go flank speed in the middle of a convoy?
- Pythos might be right, in SH3 the sonar wasn't affected that much at 300 meters, yet alone 90 meters. DDs did miss a bit but mostly because of the extra time we had to dodge the bullets.

Last but not least: why on earth would 10 escorts in a 15 knot convoy abandon a wounded battleship which can only go 14 knots (thanks to me)? I almost felt sorry for the poor guy as he was slowly overtaken by the last escort while i was chewing at his props.

Lurker, I brought up radar because you posted this.

"As I stated earlier, I was a Operations Specialist / Radarman in the US Navy for 23 years"

So with the word Radarman being used in a a side discussion about sonar and thermal layers, I felt it was prudent to point out radar does not get affected by thermal layer.

Since it appears that you are unfamiliar with what a Operations Specialist / Radarman does, you may want to read the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati..._%28US_Navy%29

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radarman

One of the jobs I did for 10 years was as a Antisubmarine Air Controller (ASAC) which requires a expert knowledge of ASW operation and one element of that knowledge is underwater acoustics ( i.e. where’s the “layer” ). If you need more info read the following:

http://motomom.tripod.com/107esws

I relay from Ducimus

No/yes

No

- Wide by neccessity. AI routine is stupid and needs the crutch.


- No


- don't think so. Early 44 i think.



- YES.

- yes

- Ping is only heard when you are in active sonar cone, presenting a favorable aspect for good surface factor, and doing both for a predetermined length of time.

- No.

- If not pinging, they are listening. Period.

- Not really, no.

- Effectiveness of depth to evade, directly correlates between the maximum dowwnard angle of the beam and range of the active sonar being used. Even after ramping up JP sonar a little bit, its still a joke compared to stock allied sonar settings. Stock downward angle is 100, i made it 115, allied goes up to 155 degrees.