I disagree with the opinion many express here that:

1. the deck-gun is some how being over used in SH3/GWX3.0 as compared to the real war, and
2. that this is the main reason for the high tonnage players here experienced.

For point number 1;

Through out WW2, Deck gun only kills account for 158 out of 2919 kills, or 5.4% of total sinking; See table.

http://uboat.net/special/analysis.htm

I am a avid deck gunner in SH3/GWX2.1 (Just had 4 patrol in GWX3.0). I using the deck gun on every occasion possible (6 knots or less, unarmed merchant) and being quite good at it (10-30 shots per kill, some out-liners). In the first 4 patrol in my current GWX3.0 career, I sink 16 ships using gun fire alone, out of a 59 Total. (During one patrol I didn't use the deck gun at all because of foul weather). That's 27%. Seems high, but this is 1939 we are talking about. When the merchant become armed, and convoys became norm, the average felt off sharply. In my last 2 career with GWX2.1, (Von Liebe (1939-1944) and Heinz(1939 to 1945)), I estimate deck-gun only kills are about 6-8% of total kills (even less if you are talking about tonnage, since fat targets are usually well protected). Which is consistent to real war stats. (Some real war captains are more likely to use deck gun than others, captains who started earlier in the war had high deck-gun usage ratio, etc. etc.)

For point 2;

When playing DiD, High tonnage is best attributed to predictable merchant behavior.

One main reason that in the real war uboats couldn't sink as many ships as could be was the fact that many shipping are simply routed around known areas of uboat activity. Many ships, such Aquitania, were never in the cross hairs of any uboat.

In SH3/GWX, however, merchants behave as if there isn't a war going on.

1. Merchant ships keep entering into areas of known uboat presence without any precaution (speed alteration and/or zigzagging). Which allows multiple kills in a short span of time.
2. Even when under attack, single merchants and small convoys maintain their heading (albeit plus zigzag), making follow-up attacks fairly easy.
3. Convoys, too, maintain their general heading, which make it easy for the uboat to regain contact after an attack and reload.
4. Inadequate pressure are being applied to uboats by escorts and Hunter-killer groups. For example, I will sink the escort carrier inside a Hunter/Killer group, and the accompanying DD's will leave 30 minutes after losing contact with me. I am then free to fall upon another prey. In real war, they would have stay a lot longer even after contact lost, waiting for a uboat to surface for air or recharge.

Secondly, the best way to rack up tonnage in SH3 is not having one long patrol going for record (I tried that, 1 patrol, 250GRT in 90+ days IXB), but many short patrols from a nearby base. For Captain Von Liebe, he rack-up 470k GRT (in 5 1/2 patrols VIIB GWX2.1 100%) in February 1940 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147006. Even the unfortunate Basil (flying Studebaker) Jahn had 48k in 22 days in 1942 (in a type IID no less).

Quick turnaround is the Key. Therefore, it makes no sense (if tonnage is your goal) to continue a patrol without torpedo.

A third reason for the high tonnage is the availability of large number of trophy ships in SH3. How many whale factory ships, 10K+ tankers have you encounter in your typical career? And how many of them existed in the real world, total? Sadly, GWX3.0 has chosen to add more tonnage by making the Large merchant 10k GRT compared to 6-8k in GWX2.1.

The way to address the astronomical tonnage number in SH3 is to address how merchants behave after the presence of a uboat is known (after an attack, or a air or surface sighting). Smarter merchant behavior could force a uboat to spend more time and ammo per kill (through zigzagging and frequent speed change), and to travel greater distances, (exposed to greater danger) to find another kill (through re-routing).

In my opinion, SH3/GWX has modeled the effectiveness as well as the limitations of the deck gun well (In fact, one can also make an argument that torpedoes in this game function better compare to the real world, no circle-back, for example.). And it's up to an individual player to choose whether or not to include this instrument in their play.

GWX3.0 100%
Mods:
English Nav Map
Lite Harbor Traffic
No Medals On Crew
Mission Orders Lite
No modification to any configuration files

Well yea its just a game and the merchants do behave like there is no war. I'm starting to lose interest because of this. I believe the merchant behavior is hard coded. So not sure anything can be done about it. I just get put off by finishing the 1st mission of the war and realizing that I would have accounted for 1/4 of the total tonnage sunk by subs in Sept 1939. So this makes it more of a game that I had hoped for.

I really would like to see a software developer nail the sim aspect. I think maybe there afraid to make it too realistic because they worry that it would be too hard or boring (from spending a week at sea and not running across anything)and then not so many would play it. I think they would be surprised. They may also have been limited by what computers were capable of processing in 2005.

Has anyone had a merchant go out of there way to try to run them over? This was something that they would try if they spot you off there track but I haven't seen it.


The stock game has way too many merchants, the mods address this quite well though they seem to have a few too many high tonnage targets available. I just ran into a convoy where the DD ran out of DC's. Maybe I just need to start a campaign in 1942 for a change of pace.

As far as the escorts leaving to early. I don't really mind that. Two and 1/2 hours of dodging attacks in real time is good enough for me. Since sometimes saving while submerged creats an unstable save I really wouldn't wat to have to play 4 hours or more waiting to surface to save my game.

I think Steeltrap said it best that, arguments about rates-of-fire aside, the real complaint is that we sink way too many ships in the game.

My solution is to go to my assigned patrol grid and stay there for the entire patrol. I've had a few great patrols, but I've also had a few that were empty, or at least only one or two ships sunk.

But then I like just sailing the boat around, so I'm probably the weird one.

You make sense to me Sailor Steve. I would buy a non combat game of life on the Mississippi aboard a tug boat :D The atmosphere would be awesome if they add all the details that the modders in these forums do.

I am going back to a type II and just putz around. Less time away from the family you know.

I completely agree with both of you. I think that the deck gun in Sh3 and 4 are way too arcadesh. My general rule is i only use it to finish off targets or i engage targets 1500 tons or less with it.:)

I'm using GWX3 and the Keil Locks mod. My favorite thing to do is just sail from the dock out of the harbor and through the locks into the canal, looking at the ships coming and going.

The last of the true romantics :03: