i' ve been wondering about this too-- some DD's have the escort=false entry in the campaign file--i keep expecting to come across convoys with DD's positioned with the merchants-- i was thinking half heartedly that maybe this was the devs incorporating DD's being delivered from the US to the UK but nor armed or crewed yet-- just a skeleton delivery crew

but i've not see this in game at all-
might be worth testing against a convoy where all the DD's are set to escort=false just to see if anything different happens--

the AI do seem to be capable of some form of basic "thinking" -they way they deal with the sensor set up i have shows that they do change their tactics to try and compensate for the hydrophone feedback being highly unpredictable--one second uber the next nothing-- as they come into and out of the "dead zone" either because they enter the minimum range blind spot or because only the stationary distant DD's can get a proper fix--

the staggerred DC drops is something i've only ever seen with this set up---i' ve seen them drop loads of DC's in a long line behind them as they pass over head--that's normal-- but i've only seen them make three entirely seperate drops on the one dc run with this particular set up--

as they enter the 1000 meter minimum range they drop one load of DC's

then there's a long pause

they drop the next load as they reach the centre of the blind spot

then finally dropp what ever they have left as they leave the blind spot--

somtimes banging of a couple of k-guns for extra bite if they have reloaded them in time (?)

so they do have the ability to adapt a little--instead of dropping 8 DC's bang over head--- they drop 4 wait then another 4-- then pop the k-guns last of all--three distinct and seperate attacks with maybe tthree boat lengths between each drop

as this is not a good tactic against a contact that is "confirmed" and never happens as stock (for me anyhuw) it shows that for wha ever reason the AI is applying some sort of alternative attack method against the more indefinite contact--

if they think they have you nailed they drop the lot in one go

the two different tactics are very distinct and easily seen in game--fascinating to see really-- even if it's nothing of the sort and just a glitch-- it works in gameplay terms--

:yep: :yep: :yep: :yep:

Absolutely,

I am now at that conclusion. Unless someone comes up with ways to alter the DD's intelligence to behave Human or more aggressive around contact reports then I am just going to continue at what I am doing.

I was wondering if I could increase the noise etc of the torpedos to wake DD,s up when I do attack. It may just stop them from carrying on regardles.

I don't care if a electric is supposed to be silent, the game just has something that occasionally stops dd's from investigating attacks on there own ships.

Yes yes yes I know all about the directive to leave straggeling ships behind etc etc in real life but if this has been incorporated into the game then it may be part of our problem.

To be honest, I suspect/hope that improved convoys mod may automattically help me out here with its tight knit formations etc.

I am also eased when I start to play with all clues off as to weather or not I have been detected. It reminds me of that part in Das where he thinks he has the upper on hand on the DD yet its the other way round.

I know that the single missions were speciffically desighned to show the best parts of the game for each situation.

What is happening is the fact that we sometimes play knowing what history was rather than getting into the mindset of the people from that time. In that time, no one was sure of what was happening, they had basic rules of course but at the end of the day it was all about balls, technollogy and half truth based rumours.

At first CB, I thought what you was doing may have been a little too extreme but now I kind of aggree with your way of thought.

As far as noise factor is concerned, I thought this is more to do with effect on own DD ship rather than uboat.

So does anyone know how to make the torps more noticable ingame?

Gouldjg
Just started a campaign mission july 1943 out of Bergen.
Grid AF79, medium seas, daylight, good visibility
Surfaced, visual sighting single hi speed DD @ 6500m, CD to 50m ahead std. Icon green Ship continues on course
Climb to PD & set rudder to make a circular pattern in frt of DD path
2500m distance increase speed to 7kts-icon green
1000m raise periscope-icon green
700m ahead flank/surface the boat-icon green
DD continues on path and I leave the area on the surface
***
Grid AF78,medium seas, dusk, fair visibility
Running surfaced at 8kts, ship spotted @ 7500m.DD approaching brg 325
I stayed surfaced this time no evasive actions just to see what would happen. The DD crossed my bow @ 5000m and continued on
***
Grid AM, medium seas, morning, good visibility
Surfaced 8kts, hdg 270
I'm patrolling area where convoys converge to enter British ports.
5:14 detecting radar signals-icon green
5:21 ship spotted brg 330/hdg NNE-icon green
2400m distance-icon starts to dirty up a bit
2100m distance-icon red
2000m distance-icon fluctuates red to green(DD is now directly of my bow hdg 000 continues on course)
1700m distance-icon red DD continues on course

At this point in time I'm thinking someone painted my boat with an invisibility coating. sort of like Harry Potters's invisibility cloak. Enemy is not even noticing my boat on the surface much less at any depth or speed.
Even tho the icon turned red and stayed there I did not get a "we've been detected" message

At this point in time I'd say that the escort AI was at least capable of detecting me on the surface in your single missions pack even tho their performance left a lot to be desired .
Please advise of any changes I can make.

on the sub meter going red -- i approached the convoy submerged the meter went from green to red WHILST i was submerged -- flat calm no possibility of any radar contact---


on the sensor hieght -- all AI sensor dat entrys are AS STOCK other than the maximum and minimum distances on the hydrophones --(HOW MANY TIMES have i said this :cry:)

yup the stock convoy escorts are programmed to stop dead in the water and listen periodically -- this NOT a new behaviuor caused by my set up---my set up is designed to EXPLOIT this behaviour


on the sub meter thing your just going to have to accept that this meter is not reliable when used with this sort of set up-and for me this is a VAST improvement on the stock 100% UBER (yes i did say UBER) detection meter--this way it is simply a vague indication of wether you have been detected or not--and is there fore far more interesting-- ---stop trying to control the game---- and start trying to take what it allready does and make it work for you-- :up:

Hemisent,

1. Fast moving escorts will not read hydrophones so you can go at flank under the water and they would as in history miss you by miles unless looking for you.

2. I have yet to play with the visual settings so have not yet bothered looking at that part yet but trust me, I will.

3. What you can do is turn up the speed factor in the sim.cfg. Look here

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.0

you will notice that the game has set 15 by default. I think they tried this so people will not start saying, "man that DD should never had detected me blah blah blah"

I bet if you set this to 25 or even 30, you will not be so lucky running at periscope depth or lower. The DDs will not have a limit with its hydrophones.

Personally, I am thinking of raising this again as when I was testing.

Try happy times mission with 15 and you will see that the escorting DD will pick you up with hydrophones as you get closer etc.


The rest is unresolved as I am still working on it and weighing up what to do.

EDIT

The speed factor is how fast the ship is going not the sub though I guess most know this.

I just wondered about adding hydrophones to certain merchants hmmmmmmm I wonder what this would do especially if I increase the range.

With the randomness of convoy build, maybe the odd convoy would just happen to include one of these and as I am approaching too fast etc etc, he may, raise a silent alarm and a DD may come over snooping.

brilliant mate -- that in a nut shell is my entire take on realism in any ww2 war sim--- and why i have absolutely no time for the "realism police" what so ever (you may have noticed :-j )

they want it all tied down to facts and figures-- they in effect want to know things that they could not have possibly have known at the time--no uncertainty-- no guess work--no intuition--- no game-- just roleplaying being uber commander of the month--i have no respect for them at all-mainly because they allways come on so heavy handed- when if fact they just haven't thought about realism with any insight at all--

i suppose a good example of this sort of thing was the metox radar ( on the snorkel head--have i got that right?)
apaprently a captured u-boat man was left in the cell and was allowed to over hear an RAF pilot who was talking about how radar on the snorkel was detectable by aircraft---the u-boat man was then allowed to escape--and this incident apparently was partly responsible for metox being removed from the u-boats when it was in actually fact a very effective defense against patroling aircraft and an aid to convoy location etc---

and he!! he!! :D if THIS information gathered from a book about the war IS innacurate ,OR I have misterpreted it---then this only goes to prove the point rather than disprove it--even NOW the information we have available isn't allways reliable--or is easily misinterpereted ---BACK THEN? --well....!

i rest the case !! :know: :yep: :up:


on the torps launch thing-- last patrol - my detection meter went from full green to full red when i launched a spread of torpedos--
this may have been co-incidence but

Sorry, i cant have in my mind the settings of everybody......

You are so stressed, try with a pack of beer and a beautiful girl this weekend !! :-j :-j ;)

If you have default settings, then ..... if i not remember bad, all sensors, pasives and actives had a ceiling of -10, try putting it to zero, to improve surface detection. :up:

Just a suggestion, nothing more, you are free to try or not. :up:

Well so far ive only done one convoy attack with the settings ive last mentioned. With a crystal clear, calm day, 0 winds, i (probably needlessly since im kinda testign) tried my best to avoid detection.


I got off 4 fish at a T2 and T3 at 3000 meters, at about 4:50 in AM game time, so i had dawn grey light conditions. Perfect time to attack really. Both the T2 and T3 went down. Oriiginaly i was heading into the convoy at 2 knots, but decided to reverse course and head out of the convoy and try and set myself up for the get away to do another end round attack.

It was at this point that one of the rear flanking escort noticed me as i exited the convoy. My aspect angle he had my broadsides. I was doing 2 knots or ahead slow at silent speed i dont remembe which. But im GUESSING he was about 3K meters away when he did notice me.

Along he came, pinging me the whole way. At this point i starting turning my boat to him. Im guessing when i got him to bearing 330 or 340 my meter went from red to green. My guess is my aspect angle screwed up his contact. At about this time, the pinging just stopped. He lost contact. He made two passs wich were close, another one which wasnt so close (he was guessing), and then he gave up and went away.

All this though, happened the instant he lost contact. (althoguh come to thnk of it, i dont remember if i ever got the " weve been detected sir" message or not.. it was late. Anyway o this end im reducing the min passive to 300 or 200 and see what happends.

Also, does that variable CB use

"aspect=0"

Relate to this at all? Maybe ill plug that one in too.

Gouldjg
A bit of success here. I changed the speed factor= to 25-everything else as is. Tried the happy times mission. I was able to approach the convoy at pd/2kts with no problem. Finally got my firing solution and let loose a spread of 4 fish all set for impact @ 5 m @ 3000m distance then continued on to see what would happen.
18:03 impact-a large ship in the center of the convoy took 3 hits and pretty much vaporized. From that time I was beginning to get noticed by the escorts. Pinging in the distance/icon dirties up a bit. A DD came from out of nowhere heading directly for me brg 90deg all of a sudden he changes course abruptly and disappears no clue why as he had me cold. Anyway to make a long story short.
I've been getting repeated attacks by a Flower Corvette and another escort. The flower shows signs of being relatively aggresive but his pal is next to worthless. Regardless this is a huge improvement over earlier tests. I find the flower capable of making both concentrated attacks when I get the "detected" message and then when he's lost me he will just take a guess and drop 2 or 3 cans. The game is still in progress-just took a break for a bit.
PS. regarding the earlier discussion of the attacker changing course everytime the boat does.
The flower was making a hi speed pass at my 270, icon full red, we are definately detected. I order all stop, back emergency (I love this manuever and do it quite often) and the flower changes course as my boat reverses. As soon as I see this I order ahead flank and the flower attempts to change course again. By this time he is right on top and dropping a full load on me. Luckily my depth is 160m and I was able to scoot away. There is no way he could have been able to tell that I had reversed direction twice
My findings so far: in this mission I am encountering one very aggresive flower corvette capable of making good, logical attacks yet also taking educated guesses. I have one incredibly useless DD who is just blasting holes in the water. I have the first DD who was coming directly for me pinging like mad he had me cold at pd then for no reason changes course and disappears(???).
I believe this mission is set in 1940 or 41(?) that may account for early technology of the escort ASW gear and tactics. Mission still in progress but unless something changes I can see this going on and on-
Anyway this is definately an improvement. I think for comparison sake I will disable your passive test setup and enable CB's and run the whole thing all over again.

i see ...then why comment?

one thing of interest to try is TT's new sound file tweaks in the mini tweaker--- you can increase the maximum range for the sounds files etc--- if increasing the range that destroyer screws are heard actually affects the AI hydrophones then this will effectively mask the u-boat whilst one is close by---depends on wether it is purely an audio effect or wether the game reads this as sensor information allso--

this of course could be the answer to everyones problems---

if your having problems with uber DD's reduce the audible range of the subs screws-- and increase it if they have trouble detecting you--if the AI sensors "HEAR" the sound files literally-rather than it being calculated seperately from the actual in game sound effects---then this is a dead simple way to sort it out---i hazzard a guess this will not effect silent runing--depends on how exactly that works--

certainly worth a try.

So far ive been doing 1942, improved convies with crew rating 3's.

Detection, im guessing, isn't a problem. They can most certainly detect me if:

a.) I choose to pilot the boat outside the parmaters i have set. (IE be at slow and silent within 1K meters = red meter. at 1 or 2 knotts i get a green meter.)

or

b.) I happen to get in their way. I had a convoy zig onto my track and next thing i know im dead center of an oncoming convoy. The front guartd went by me at first (me being at slient with all engines stopped trying to make like a big hole in the water), once he passed me i thought i was fine, when he started zigged as part of his search pattern after he passed me all of a sudden im getting pinged just like that.


The most disappointing thing is the AI's behavior despite their increased chance to detect me. Watching them, its almost as if each one is assigned a different sector of the convoy, and each escort sticks to its sector, no matter what. Perhaps this is intenitonal in 1942? By 1943 i expect that to stop. Which is when im going to run my next test.

Another thing ive noticed is that in campign, the escorts seem to behavre more defensivly. In otherwords, unless you get right next to them, they only seem to respond as if to beat you off the convoy with a stick. Once they chase you off, they resume their station of defensive guard.

On the other hand they behave VERY aggreissivly in the U505 mission, and herein lies a point. IN the U505 mission your attacking a hunter/killer group, not a defensive convoy guard. The former is out to kill YOU to begin with, the latter is only there to keep the convoy going. Not to kill you. What im saying there is im begining to think theres a fundamental difference in the Escort AI, depending on the paramters of the situation. Im also thinking theres a fundamental difference betwen campign and singlemission AI.

What i think we need here is a single convoy mission set up exactly what youd find in campign to include your appraoch, and see if the AI behaves any different then in campign, at a given year.

Im going to replace all my crew ratings with 4 and try 1942 again and see if i notice any difference in behavior, and then again in 43.

Pin point drops we can fix, deaf DD's we can fix, but those are only part of the problems, the big problem could be the AI itself. Campagin just seems inheirantly act different and its kidna disappointing.

If it turns out the AI itself is the last key in the puzzle, i dunno if if that can be modded or not. If it is part of the puzzle and if it can't be moded, i think im going to give up, start a career in 1939 with an IXB with the fixes i have in pace, and play it out to 45 and sink an ungodly amount of tonnage out of spite. Then unistall the game and play soemthing else for awhile. :damn:

As for the sound of your sub, I hated the engine noise and changed my engine sound file a long time ago, I forgot all about this till you mentioned it CB, but I stll get detected no problem.

I read you post CB about the DD's behaviour when they keep stopping for a sound check and when you are detected how one waits while the other makes a charge in your direction.
The one waiting is obviously telling the charger your position, then they swap roles, is this the noise factor or the speed settings in the cfg files?

Another thing may be we are missing, we keep saying (ESCORTS) but do you think the type of DD also makes a difference, I'm thinking again what CB said, he got hounded by a corvette but the other DD seemed a bit docile, may be his equipment wasn't up to scratch, just a thought.

Edited: I meant the DD not you CB. :-j

Well there is a diference between DD and a DE.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships...type=Destroyer

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships...stroyer+Escort

The uber escorts i beleive are DE's.