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Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo
(Post 2265621)
True - but its the only nationwide data we have to use. If its good enough to be used by you earlier - I don't see why you don't want to use it now....
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Fair point and my mistake, my only excuse was the time of morning I was typing that.
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You mean like the rioters in Ferguson who - after Wilson was exonerated by the evidence, wanted to just lynch him anyway? Or do the standards of the Justice System only apply to the "repressed" blacks since they obviously don't think they should have to hold whiteys to that standard....
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No, I think that the rioters in Ferguson were in the wrong too, and as I've already stated in this thread, I do feel some sympathy to Wilson who is not going to be safe for the rest of his life. In a way, the acquittal was probably the worse outcome for Wilson since he's now going to have to go into hiding, and it's not easy to hide in this interconnected world. I imagine they'll have to take him abroad somewhere, maybe Liberia or somewhere else the US has good ties with.
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No - I saw it. Which is why I corrected myself and noted that the seven times number came from murders/homicides - not "all violent crime". The 6.69 times (rounded to 7) number is from murder/homicides only and is therefore, accurate.
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Fair enough.
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Glad we can agree on something. :)
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I think we agree on more things than you realise but it's the surrounding matter we disagree on.
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I have to disagree on a couple of things here. The Ferguson riots were not about other people who have been shot without cause - they have been about outright lies told to push a vision that whitey is out there murdering innocent black folks.
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In a few instances this is not far from incorrect. Let's put it this way, if you're 21 times more likely to be shot as a black guy, but only 2 times more likely to be a criminal, then that's a disconnect of about 19.
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After all - the whole "hands up, don't shoot" stupidity came about because of the claim that Brown surrendered and was shot down - some claiming the officer even stood over him and executed him. All demonstrated false by the cold hard forensic facts.
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It's entirely possible that Brown did say "Don't shoot", although I don't think he raised his hands as he turned and walked towards the officers after first running. Again, further back in this thread Armistead went through the reports and put forward a fairly conclusive estimate of what happened in that situation.
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Second, I agree with many of those who say that the police should not be armed like a military force. No reason for it and it should not be allowed. There is also no reason that various federal agencies (the BLM, EPA, FEMA, etc.) need their own "law enforcement" divisions. I also disagree with letting Law Enforcement confiscate private property (cash, land, vehicles, etc) without a judge signing off on it and a conviction against the owner. Yet it happens a lot. In fact, it is going to be a major bone of contention with the next nominee for the head of the DoJ. But founding a movement on a basis of lies while claiming to want to "fix things" doesn't bake a good cake. Its bogus and morally corrupt.
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I think in this instance the action was a straw that broke the camels back, there's been tension mounting since Oakland and in this interconnected world it was one shooting too many.
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Nor am I. However many have done so, and used the tragedy to further a false narrative about police brutality, racism and victimization while doing nothing more than harming others of their own community.
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That's what some people do, but there are a lot more people who are trying to peacefully protest the incident and yet they are overshadowed by the looters.
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Rioting, looting and burning down businesses does not further the discussion on how to insure the tragedies of shootings by cops stops. Nor does stopping traffic on major freeways in and around major cities.
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Then what does? People have been trying to further the discussion for thirty years. When not even the Attonery-General of the United States will listen to Congress to publish the figures that people want to see, then who is going to listen to the people trying to further the discussion?
No-one. So they have to make people listen, as MLK once said "A riot is the language of the unheard".
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The problem is much less about economics or police brutality and racism - and much more about social failures within the black community. The black community has chosen to hold up as its idols those who promote hatred of others, disrespect toward women, glorification of drugs, guns and the "gangsta" lifestyle. It is that very reality that makes so many blacks think that it is acceptable to go burn down Taco Bell because whitey the cop didn't get hung on the courthouse steps - which exactly what they did.
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Some epic generalisation there.
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Economics? Please. Poor people of all races and colors struggle, but man the poor still don't go without their steaks and lobster bought with food stamps, their cable, drugs and big screen TV, game console, etc. paid for by cash outlays from welfare, and their housing paid for by the tax dollars of those that actually go out and work. Economics? For many blacks it is simple, why go work when you can sit home, play video games and blame how bad life sucks on whitey if you get busted with a dime bag of your favorite nose candy.
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And some more epic generalisation too.
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For the rest of the black community - those that truly do want to put forth the effort to better themselves - they have to deal with the fallout and the challenges that others have created for them. A business owner may overlook a person of color because of the bad rap other blacks have created. Fair? No - but reasonable. And life isn't fair.
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The majority will always have to deal with the actions of the vocal minority. To generalise black and poor people as drug addicts living on welfare is to make the same generalisation that all Americans are gun-toting, bible bashing, right-wing cowboys, or that all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church members.
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There isn't any "may" in the equation. Between forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony from both the shooting AND the robbery, along with video evidence of Brown's assault on the shop owner, there is no doubt he was involved in some criminal activity. You don't start a discussion over major issues of race relations and police misconduct by lying about the police and adding in racial overtones that were not involved. Doing so makes a discussion fruitless. Sadly - that is what the agitators and race baiters in Ferguson did - and it is that fact that keeps any real discussion from happening.
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Then perhaps what both sides need to do is move past the incident at hand and look at the bigger picture, but I don't see that happened.
There is a problem, but no-one is willing to address it, and so we'll be seeing a lot more Fergusons, maybe even another Los Angeles riot. Perhaps when a major city burns then people might start to take the situation seriously and take steps to rectify it, but I suspect by then it will be too late and the only actions that will be taken will be extremist ones and violence will be answered with violence and spiral out of control.
I don't see us making much more progress on this discussion so I shall draw it to a close here, and sit back and watch what happens in America with a morbid fascination.
