Being no expert, could you explain in simple terms what are the improvements on the new sonar model. ?

The diameter of a turn should be in the order of 600 to 800 yards which should be about 5 to 6 times the lenght of the ship.
I am pretty sure (will double check my notes)

So what did you change then for the speed if it was not for the turn.
You mean there is no more slight variation of speed (even with currents or against very strong winds?

Thanks
Mau

Goldorak, I am no expert in sonar either... however, the sonar model in DW 1.01 was a very simple model that did not account for environmental conditions in precise ways, instead by only adding fixed modifiers to detection ranges, and in some cases this worked to produce the feeling of sonar operation and in some cases it didn't. The effect was to have sonar model that was very predictable. You could look at three or four simple variables and be able to detect just about any detection range for any situation, because that was essentially how the model worked: x+y-z/a=d.

However, now what we have is an actual, functional model of how sound propagates in various environmental conditions and the ways in which this effects sonar. So it is no longer possible to simply have a few pieces of information and be able to figure out exactly what will happen. Now, even if you have a lot of information, the actual game effect will be not nearly predictable in the way it was previously. In short, the game now has a sonar "model" rather than a sonar "approximation."

Mau,

I have increased the FFG acceleration by fixing its prop size to the proper diameter. The physics model still effects it the way it should, but you no longer have a weak propeller, meaning that the thresholds that slow the FFG down have been raised, so, for example in Sea State 3, you can still achieve flank, as with stock 1.03 you were only able to go about 24kts in moderate seas, which seemed too slow to me anyway for a ship such as the OHP. Also, during turns, the FFG would lose more speed than even in 1.01.

My logic for making these corrections was that since the physics engine was changed, but the database was left the same, there was no necessary connection between what was in the database and what is now in the game. I'll say that I believe it was simply an oversight by the developers and I have reported it as a "bug." So they can take care of it, or not, but the fix is very easy, so I have gone ahead and taken care of it in the Mod BETA.

In terms of the turn performance you are talking about, if you set the FFG to make a 600 to 800 yard circle, you will get the performance you describe. This has been the same since 1.01. However, when you set 25 degree rudder in DW at flank, you get a circle of about a boatlength in diameter and the speed drops to 9kts. Now, I find it very hard to believe that such a circle is possible to make at 24 kts, and what you say seems to confirm this. So, the issue here seems to be that the rudder is way too efficient in creating a turn, and the FFG decelerates because of that. However, like I said, if you set the FFG to make a 600 to 800 yard circle, you will maintain the speeds you are describing.

So I believe the issues is that the handling of the FFG has been simplied somewhat. Perhaps you can make such a tight turn in the FFG at 8-9kts, but you need to have a different real life setting than flank and 25 degrees rudder. In the game you can make a 600 to 800 yard circle at 22-24 kts, but not with the settings you would use in RL.

So you can do everything you are describing, but the in game inputs are different than what a real FFG helmsman use to make those maneovers.

I think that makes sense. :doh:

Hmm... I think I may have found the problem.

The smallest circle it is possible to set with the FFG rudder is at 5 degree deflection... and that circle is only 200-300 yard across!!!

I think I maybe able to fix this with a combination of thrust and turn radius. :hmm:

More testing being done right now. :ping:

Well, I've been able to fix the problem by increasing the turn radius for the FFG by a phenominally large degree over the standard value in the database... from 500 to 3000.

Now, this is good and bad.

The good is that I have gotten exactly the turning performance that you have described... well a little more speed lost, goes down to 19kts but that could be corrected by adding an even larger turn radius, and a circle the size of that you have described for full rudder deflected.

HOWEVER, the negative side of this is that it makes the FFG autopilot, used on turns to bearing and for the AI, completely broken.

So, I can get what you are saying to happen in the game, but the game is clearly not designed for that to be the case.

I need to do more testing, but I am afraid in this case the cure is worse than the disease. :cry:

Thank you very much for everything you are trying here!

I'll be following that closely

I've installed Patch 1.03BETA from a FRESH reinstall of DW and I get version 1.00 in the starting screen. I believe SCS will change that number when the official version of the patch will be out... :hmm:

Somethings not right for you then, I get 1.03 when I load the game.

WTF, I'm not criticising you. You fixed it great. I fixed it to0.

I don't get why you had to right that with all those smilies..

The sub handling has gone to hell for me. So far I've only tested it with the 688i, but it takes the sub FOREVER to change depth. Literally it dives 1 ft per every 5-10 seconds. At best that works out to a 20 minute descent to 250 feet. :o

The acceleration is FUBAR as well, going from 0 knots (ice surfacing) to 5 knots didn't work at all. Only managed to get it up to 5 by ordering flank speed and then stopping the dial once it hit 5.

Patch 1.03
 

Alex you are right about the depth change 'hell'.

I reported in July that the depth change delays in DW had changed significantly from SC. Akula2 + 250% SW + 330%.

Just run the SW through depth changes from 300 ft to 100 ft and return. The new figures are below , with DW 1.01 bracketed.

Ascend at 14 knots from 300 ft -to 100 ft - 1min 33 secs ( 2 mins 19 sec) An improvement.
Descend at 14 knots from 100ft to 300 ft - 6 min 10 secs (2 min 19 secs.) A MASSIVE increase. :hmm: :yep:

I seem to remember 'someone' getting a bit peevish about performance reports before. :damn: :arrgh!: :hulk:

I'll reinstall then... :88)

Sorry Xabba... you're right. :oops:

I thought you were advocating for leaving it as it was and not reporting it to SCS as a bug. :dead:

take a look here =>
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45663

you will see some consequences ofthe new model.

The acceleration is lower than it was (and closer to real values I believe) but more importantly it's ADJUSTABLE now (which it wasn't in 1.01) so SCS or mod makers can set it to any value they want. If you order screw rotations for 5kts then no wonder that acceleration is low, and it takes quite long to reach those 5kts. And nothing strange in fact that if you order flank, you get those 5kts faster :-).
The sub diving... is bugged now (everyone sees that) but that's why it's beta patch only :-), just work in progress :-).

It's still a bug because the ordered speed thing still exists.

when you ask it to go to a slower speed it always goes to a speed one know below what you ordered.

What do you mean?...

Try to dive a sub from the surface and you'll see ;)

T/A Speed and Depth change rate
 

The Towed Array, on at least the US Subs, the only ones I have tried to date, is really slow. Towed Arrays should deploy and retieve at a rate of about 21/2 to 31/2 min. depending on the Array, the Pelamida usually took about 1 min. Now on US Subs that speed is very close to real world.
Changing depth, Subs go down fast, that is how you get yourself out of trouble. Nuke boats do not have a negative tank, but they are bult to submerge, they will attempt to dive at high surface speeds if not watched.
The way DW is setup now the US Subs are way to slow on any depth changes. Some one talked about buoyancy, on the surface the subs weight is less than its buoyancy. When you open all vents on the dive the boat sinks like a rock. Once submerged and at depth the buoyancy is controlled by the trim tanks. The MBT are full of water and the vents are shut. The sub is kept at depth by trim tanks, planes and speed. You want to get down flood the trim tanks and go to full dive and believe me you are going to down. The COW on orders from the Conn will adjust trim and weight by pumping into or out of the trim tanks, the trim tanks -usually- are around 1/2 full.This setup now in DW is wrong. Also a nuke boat can do an airless surface by using it's engines to literally drive the boat to the surface, not the same as emergency blow and honestly it's rather fun. You can get about half the boat out of the water. Got to watch it so it don't slide back on you.
The prsent setup of 1.03 makes know sense at all.

Repectfully,


Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

This might be related (and the reason why you cannot do a non emergency blow surfacing), in DW one cannot control the ship's trim angle. At the same time, the AI attempts to always keep it at 0°, or as close to 0° as possible.

This is constructive criticism guys, I am not trying to be an ass. :up: