Well if the Germans didn't invade in WW2 the Dutch would have eventually entered the war when another country attacked them in December 1941 just like .....:03:
Good point about WW1 though, the great war 1917-1918:yeah:

Good point!
I always found it odd that folks, who call public health care socialism, are often the same that have no problem with it when it is in the military - the same with pensions and education.
The military often provides a decent education for the people enlisted, most often also usefull in the private job sector. Nonetheless this is a state-sponsored education.

This is exactly what everybody says who is potentially endangered of budget cuts. "Oh, it's only a tiny fraction out of (insert gigantic sum of debt here). The same in any sector that receives government money, nobody wants to accept cuts on his own budget...:shifty:

I know you're kidding, however: obviously you do not know in what status Germany's military already is, and how much more it is planned to be thinned out. We simply do not have any offensive capacities that would be sufficient to take a country like France or Poland. I would say that France is stronger today, and probably also Poland. I would not take it as granted that we even could take Denmark or Holland and Belgium.

And the shrinking of the German military continues. Analysts in Germany as well as international experts repeatedly got qupoted that already right now Germany can no longer fulfill it's military obligations in the alliance.

In case of a big European land- and airwar (attack on NATO from outside), I would rate Germany as one of the weaker actors in NATO.

Curiosum of the day: the biggest tank army in Europe - is run by debt-drowning Greece.:timeout:

Interesting, now why would a country thats all mountains and islands need a tank-force

Turkey.

Much of Greece was once conquered and occupied by the Ottomans. The hostility of the Greeks over Turkey goes back to that time. Turkey's hostility in return goes back to the fact that they had lost Greece again.

That much I understand. But a modern equipped infantry squad, trained in hit&run tactics would make short work of a tank unit in that hilly terrain. And those islands, unless all their tanks are amphibius. Those tanks are more likely to be a show of force

You are well-spoken in highlighting the issues we face lol. What should have been recognized and asked about this whole "World Police" ideology a long time ago is... how the hell can any nation expect to solve the various problems of other nations when it can't even solve its own beforehand?

http://us.cdn1.123rf.com/168nwm/vcle...d-on-white.jpg

How many times have our leaders told us the latest military misadventure "isn't about nation building" as we go on to try to build a nation amenable to our interests.

Quite frankly, and I don't say this in a 'OMFG I'm from the UK and therefore must be the US's best buddy' but the US is welcome to keep their bases running over here, for one thing it brings in money for us from US airmen shopping in local places. For another it gives the US a nice refueling point without having to put up tankers, or indeed gives them somewhere to base the tankers (Mildenhall springs to mind) and it's nice to see US kit in the skies from time to time. Yes, the UK is very much riding on the coat-tails of the US military, primarily because we've lost most of ours. :damn: It's not a situation I'm exactly happy with, but at the same time it's nice to know that someone has our back until our idiots have sorted themselves out.
However, if the US decided to cut back again on USAFE bases then I'd fully understand and support their decision, it is after all their military.

I do ponder, if perhaps the US, and other nations, need to do a hard reset on their finances, start a new peg system for it, stop any inflation and so forth. It's a tricky situation, and I really don't understand finances enough to be assertive on the subject, but it's not getting any better and whether this is due to a 'welfare state' or high military spending I do not know, but I think that both the US and other nations are fast approaching the point where a drastic measure is called for.

The UK & France earned their ride. They stood against the Nazis and Russians when everyone else watched. So I don't mean anything derogatory when I say you "are riding our security coattails", I'm just outlining one of the factors of our extremely high defense budget. Above all else, the US's transition from an isolationist power to a "world policeman" has been one hell of a success in keeping Western powers from re-engaging in world war.

Aye that (and in particular the first paragraph) :yeah:

In a nutshell, war is a business. The defense industry is just that, a industry. Also, the US can not ignore what is transpiring on the other side of the world. These activites can and do directly affect the US physically or monetarily. These cold war bases have changed rolls in so much as the US is really the 'world police.' As some point out, these bases provide an economy for surrounding cities. These bases are forward fueling stops, etc. The US has many international interests for many reasons.

Darn good point. My only question is whether we can continue to afford doing this.

I suspect...eventually 'NO' but what worries me is who will eventually take over the role.

China?

The Greeks definitely are irrational over their armed forces. Calculating the personell strength versus their population size, they operate the - by far - biggest army in Europe, and lastz year they reported to the UN's weapon sregister a tank force of over 1600, half of which are Lepard-1 and Leopard-2.

BUT:

While making deals likwe crazy with the Germans - and owing enormous sums to the German weapon producers, they tried tzo reduce the costs by sparing - ammunition. The 3-4 hundred tanks of the latest models of the Leopard fleet are reported to be toothless, and having no grenades. They cannot shoot with anything! Other parts of their tank fleet is said to be running extremely short on ammunition, or also not having any ammunition at all.

However, the thunder run in Bagdhad and the Israelis' experiences have lead to a different definition of tanks in urban or cluttered environments. To have tanks in that geography of theirs maybe is not as pointless as yoiu think. In defensive positions, hull-down, with the ultra-hard turrets of the latest Leopards and assumed air superiority, such positions could be a showstopper for a Turkish invasion.

But hell, tanks should have a bite, really! :D

Buying tanks without ammo... boy! Tells you a bit on how crazy Greek policy-making is - not just since the currency drama.

P.S. All info on those empty tanks from German, Austrian and Swiss newspapers last year.

If they want to be seen as a legitimate superpower, they're going to have to start acting in that capacity.

Which I jonestly reckon would be the least of their concerns....and that is another point to worry about.

Oh how quaint...mark me up another post!!

I can hardly see a connection that us being the world police has kept us from engaging in another world war, nor do I see the dynamics of it. If anything it seems we're setting the stage for further conflict and weakening our economic power why the future powers to be gain strength.

We spend over 100 billion is Afganistan every year, yet we can't spend the money to rebuild towns torn up by recent storms. We're going broke rebuilding third world nations that still show us no favor and will go back to as they were when we leave..if we ever leave. The mid east is turning against our placed dictators and probably will go more radical.