The thing there is, as soon as we can explain and understand it, the supernatural ceases to be supernatural and reverts to being natural :O:

Then, despite your "EXACTLY", you missed my point entirely.

HOW do you know God exists? There is no evidence one way or the other. Things may just be what they are, and not have had any help at all. What you "know" is only what you believe. As I said, believing it doesn't make it so.

It's very hard to answer single points in a run-on sentence, so I divided the following up as best I could.
Why exactly is that a safe bet. It's only true if there really is a God, and so far the only evidence you've shown is the fact that you believe it. That is all you really "know". If it can't be shown with facts and evidence, then it is nothing more than belief, and belief is not proof.

That is certainly true, if the initial assumption is true. But again, there is no direct evidence for the existence of God, so your argument is all built on faith, not fact.

Again you miss the important fact that we don't know if everthing was created out of nothing or not. All we "know" is what we see. Everything else is guesswork. The universe may have been created by God, or it may just "be". We don't know.

Don't take this to mean I deny God's existence. That would require me to believe that there is no God, and I don't. The only thing I know for certain on the subject is that I don't know. And the only thing I believe is that no one else knows either.

And if someone does actually know, I wish they'd show me the proof.

Well, first of all I wouldn't say "everything" is created out of "nothing". Some things were created out of some other things, and some more things out of the last things etc. etc.


If you want a Ferrari, why wait 4.6 billion years to create it? Why make a Ferrari with many design flaws that breaks down after x years? Why create billions of other Ferrari's floating out of reach of you somewhere in space?

So your Ferrari analogy can just as easily be used to counter the claim that god exists.

Supernatural and natural are just words . . .and there are many level of understanding . . . and if you ask why to everything that man claims to have understood the final answer would be they don't know that yet.

I never claimed to be able to show anyone proof of God. And I don't mean to argue either. As to the question to how do I know God exists? Well I saw God. I asked to be shown God and there was given what I asked 18 years ago. Of course this is not a public proof but it was enough of a personal proof to ME alone.

That's just one of the PERSONAL proof that I have of God. I never claim to have a proof of God that applies to everyone nor able to prove it.

I don't mean to offend anyone or ague for the sake of arguing and not much a debate that I can present. . . . . .I just want to make a testimony that I know God exists and no it's not a mere belief. And I'm not the only one obviously then now or ever.




Sure but like what I wrote essentially everything must have been created out of nothing in the beginning but Sailor Steve argued that we could not even say that because we don't know anything about what was really in the beginning as there could already be something in the beginning, a something or many something or many everything which has always existed even before the creation of this 3 dimensional universe. Then I think we need to investigate how those something or many everything came into being in the first place before because if they had a beginning that beginning might point to the time of creation of everything . . . .



umm I must assume that you didn't really mean Ferrari :DL

Why not?! You certainly not assuming that there's a problem of creating a universe which is taking so much of mankind standard years?


Why not if that had been the plan all along?
Or why not even if that had been the best that whatever the creator could create?

Obviously any physicist would tell us that the universe is not going to last forever, at least the one which we are currently seeing with live stars and all. Physicists could present theory of the end of universe existence but nothing more than that. The end may be as puzzling as the beginning but we do know the the universe capability to sustain life at least our kind of being diminishes as it progresses in time hence it seems that ability to sustain life forever was never the characteristic of this universe


Unless logic fails me the distance would be to create barrier to make them exactly that, out of reach, at least until mankind develop their capabilities further. And stars are becoming more distant as time goes by. So we better hurry up :D

And I don't know if there were Ferraris in space either is there much use and anything enjoyable for us out there that's not here already?


Actually I was using that Ferrari to make comparison with the life that we are so blessed to enjoy.

A heart that's capable of feeling.....tongue which make the acts of nourishing ourselves a pleasure which is important to give us incentive to preserve ourselves :O:

Or the sun which conveniently placed to give us the optimum heat that would not endanger life.

Or the beautiful nature that compels millions of tourist looking for a refreshing get away to enjoy a scenic holiday be it the sea, the mountain, the lake or the country side.

Life could be much more depressing if all nature had been an ugly piece of ****.:D

But they do not and they are even beautiful and joyful to be enjoyed.
Sure there might be the occasional hurricane, earthquake but life on this planet is very much enjoyable is it not. What I'm trying to say that the planet is convenient for thriving living population.

when you look at the mirror this morning do you like what you are seeing? When you breathe do you not like the air that you breathe in?

Do you not enjoy your life?


And did you work on those things?:O:

No? then your life as much as mine is a gift! And if you said those things happened by themselves the way we enjoy living and just being then . . .WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

On the subject of a universe suited for life a counter argument could be that it is us who are suited for life in our universe and not the other way around. It is us who developed to survive in the universe. A vastly different universe may have life that has evolved to survive in it totally different that us and could not survive in our universe and vice versa.

Point of interest: We live in a 4 dimensional universe. The 4th dimension being Time. If we lived in a 3 dimensional universe our existence would be static- perhaps we would perceive time like the "Wormhole Aliens" on DS9, seeing the Past, Present and Future all occurring at once. Or nothing would occur in the universe.


Some physicists will also tell you that time and space are curved that that is it possible under very special circumstances to travel forwards or backwards in time. If an observer were to travel under such special circumstances (one possibility of backwards time travel requires two black holes in extreme proximity) he/she/it could live in a never ending universe.


Unless we discover how to travel with distance as a meaningless part of the equation IE a wormhole.





Somewhere out in the infinite universe there is the planet of the wild Ferrari herds. A planet where the natural evolution of life includes an internal combustion powered aesthetically pleasing hunk of metal as its natural ultimate lifeform survive to its environment.

Aye but it may be possible or even very that a universe could have been created that would not well suited for any life form to develop. Microscopically speaking the moon doesn't have a life form . . . .and physicists are saying the the universe will lose its capability to sustain life eventually
Not saying that the point was not a good one. :DL


Is time a derived dimension that resulted from a universe created in motion and which is still in motion or would time be an independent dimension one which existed regardless of motion in space or universe.

Because if time is dependent on the motion in created space then it will not be a dimension itself. It's just there because the universe is in motion.

But your next quote may answer this


now I can't even imagine how time travel would be accomplished if it were possible I guess time would indeed be another whole dimension and not simply the result of motion in space. Time travel . . . . . .sounds insane doesn't it?

Aye agree space exploration needs a kind of propulsion or traveling technology that is now still beyond our know how.

I still want to know how some Christians can argue that dinosaurs didn't exist, standing in front of a carbon-dated authentic T-Rex skeleton at the natural history museum. It's absolutely baffling.

another thing concerning the big bang theory.
It's not that everything came from nothing. it's that everything came from a singularity. a singular particle exploded [skip ahead skip ahead] and now we have the known universe.
I can't take the bible seriously because it was written 2000 years ago. Do you think the writers knew we would have facebook, twitter, and all this cellphone and personal computer nonsense?
No.
It's a great way to dictate a moral code and standards to live by......
If you live in a society where almost all of your community is illiterate and your only literate person is a storyteller. Give him a biiiig book filled with all this holy knowledge (nowadays, a lot of it is called common sense) and he will go forth and improve the standards of living through his wiseness, thanks to this collection of writings. It's a fascinating story. it's compiled like some kind of epoch. Since just standing around telling everyone this is wrong and you should be nice to people is just silly. we need characters, a storyline, morals and reasons. If you do something outside the boundaries of this moral code, you will spend your afterlife (if such a thing really exists) suffering with no end in sight.
after a few thousand years of documented history, we have this whole Moral code, ways to live, and reasons to be good, down.

Man is adventurous and curious by nature. If god wanted us to believe in him, he would make it far more obvious that he exists, or make the human being stay reclusive and dependent on his knowledge...which, if it really was the best knowledge, guess what adam and eve would have sitting on their nightstand?
a bible.
If simply questioning his existence condemns you to hell...or looking at another woman because you find her attractive for that matter, that's a little drastic, don't you think? In this day and age, almost everything we do but breathing is a sin. There is no proof that this God figure exists. We have no firsthand accounts of a Hell, we have no way to tell if someone is an angel or not.
We will find out how all of this wonderful natural machinery (e.g. ferraris and mountains and stuff) came to be. but it's not our time or our place yet. we will keep searching, and we will discover the true meaning behind why we are here and how we came to be.
The church exists so the misguided, the immoral, and the hopeless can find a true direction on their compass.
Nothing like saying a supernatural being will send you to an eternal suffering ground if you don't straighten your act up right?
I'm sure a devout [insert religion name here] will come along and shoot all of my theories and ideology down. After all, they have a 2000 year old book to back them up.
I'm just a cynical teenager. :DL
and now I will devote my life to finding such a planet...but perhaps it has already evolved?
maybe the ferraris are working cubicle jobs and programming WEP keys for their routers at home, driving to work on a brand new, shiny human?

I am fairly confident that no T-rex has ever been carbon dated since carbon dating only goes back about 50,000 years due to the half life of the isotopes involved in that particular radiometric dating method, some other radiometric dating method must have been used.
Other than that, this is my daily nitpicking done :D

I stand corrected, I just threw in carbon dated to solidify the authenticity.:up:

god is a simplistic reason for the universe. Its for people who dont want to go into extreme depth on the universe. TIME always has been and always will be, and physics always has been and always will be. doesnt mean theres a god. If you try to unravel how the universe created ITSELF, youll literally think yourself to death. With religious nuts, its just simple. god created everything with a whiff of his hand. what a load. Its just a simple answer to the most complex question Man has ever known. Thats why people believe it.

The god people think of doesnt exist. However, the meaning of god does. the all powerful being is physics and Time itself. Everything beyond that is horse S**T

No offense is meant, but that's a simplistic thing to say.

Unfortunately is also doesn't mean there isn't.

Really?

And you know this for certain? How?

well, its astronomical that the god that people depict exists.

And of course thers 0 proof with anything god-related. its quite a complex situation. theres 0 proof that he does exist, and 0 proof he doesnt. however if he doesnt exist, how will there ever be proof? if he does, theress still not going to be proof. Its a conundrum.

i honestly do belive it IS a load. At leaast, that some all powerful all knowing being created the universe with a flick of the wrist and just spawned us out of nowhere.

And how can you not be simplistic about something simple?

Well if the multidimensional universe is infinite then maybe somewhere out there the Judeo-Christian God does exists, it will be a scary day when one of our starships find him...

There is no evidence supporting the existence of God/Gods/creationist myths. There are vast amounts of evidence to support scientific theories about how the universe came into being and how life in all its present forms came to be (in its present form.) I cannot claim to know if Jehovah, Toutatis or Osiris exists/existed or not with absolute certainty. I can however firmly state that the existence of any God/Gods is extremely unlikely.

To deny the obvious nature of evolution and its driving forces is comparable to denying that the earth is roughly spherical rather than flat or that the earth orbits the sun. These two things we know to be a fact and anyone who denies it is being intentionally ignorant. Human beings share parts of their DNA with almost all other life forms on this earth including plants, insects, birds, mammals, fish, and any others that you can think of. We are all distant cousins of every other living thing.

The intelligent design argument is flat out flawed. Human eyes are among the most inefficient in the animal world, coupled with the fact that the 'design' itself leads to myopia almost invariably as we get older. The fact that we walk upright demands we have narrow hips which is counter productive when females give birth through their hips, which leads to human babies being born vastly premature with their brains and skull bones inadequately formed causing a greatly increased parental dependancy time for the offspring. We only grow two sets of teeth (apart from in very very rare cases) in short, the 'design' of the human being is far from perfect.

The argument that without religion or God that humans would have no empathy or morals is just as flawed. If you admit that without any fear of divine retribution you would happily go around killing, stealing, or worse then you are obviously at least a sociopath if not a complete psycho and we would be well advised to lock you up now before by some chance you decide that in light of recently observed evidence that God does not exist. Empathy comes from the concept of putting yourself in someone/something elses shoes. I sometimes accidentally kill small creatures (spiders, beetles etc.) as I work outdoors and the inevitable feeling of guilt comes from my imagination about how I would feel if our roles were reversed, and how the situation could have been avoided. The trick is, I hold myself accountable for these accidents and if I see a way to avoid them (peacefully evicting a spider before I drop a 3.5 ton load on his new house) then I will always attempt to do so.

I do not write to offend and if it causes offence I am truly sorry. I feel only that it is my duty to say these things, and if by some miraculous chance that God does exist, then he obviously wants me to be an Atheist and I am fairly sure he wants you and everybody else to be too.

True. But a 99.9999999999% certainty is still not a fact in evidence.

Which was exactly my point. I no longer see a reason to believe, but it is impossible for me to disbelieve, since the only thing I know for certain is that I don't know.

And that is just fine, since we all get to believe what we want. My only point was there is a difference between saying "I think it's stupid" and saying "It's stupid". One is an opinion, the other is a statement of fact, and unless the facts are actually in evidence then it becomes an opinion stated as a fact, which implies knowledge we don't really have, which means that we're basing an argument on a lie.

I just like to keep my facts in order. :D

It's easy. Just rationalize your statements and they can mean anything you want. Just joking there, but calling something simplistic when the person who believes it doesn't see it that way doesn't help the argument, it merely exacerbates it. To my mind it's always better to discuss than to dismiss; if for no other reason than that you never know if they might actually be right. :dead: