From CCIP

Here is the answer on manual TDC, point and shoot. Note CCIP said he can point the scope anywhere, hit the send range button (Bearing Mark) and firing.:yep:

@AVG Warhawk: Forget about all this scope "lock" stuff, has nothing to do with it.

Point is, IRL the skipper hit the Mark Button to transmit the bearing the scope/TBT (Target BEARING Transmitter) was looking at *in this moment* to the TDC / PK. Or the bearing was read out by the XO and "Marked" by the TDC operator. As it is in SHIV, the bearing will only be transmitted when you transmit any other data like speed, AOB or range (some say it will only be transmitted with range, though I'm not sure about that) - there is no seperate Mark Button for it. At first glance it might seem it is the way it is for comfort ("one less button to hit"), though it is in fact annoying when you want to aim at specific parts of the target via the crosshairs, or when you want to send the latest bearing to the TDC just before firing, which was SOP iRL. Because even if your fire solution might be not so good, when you update the bearing just before you fire, the "time" until your solution error will matter again starts anew, since the error increases with time.

Yep, this is the workaround to the missing Mark button, but it can be annoying since it takes a while which kinda makes it hard to mark this or that specific part of the target. It should only be one click, w/o any worry about "taking range" (again).

But when the skipper is calling out "Mark", the range and AoB information is already entered.

As far as I can tell, there is no difference between the skipper IRL calling out "mark", and us simply sliding out the TDC 'thingy' in the upper right and re-transmitting information. Granted, it ALSO re-transmits the set range, AoB, and speed...which, I guess, is 'unrealistic', but...what does it matter? We didn't change those values, so...??? It shouldn't effect anything in the solution but the new bearing?

Ok, got it. This is were I'm still lost. All the bearings/AOB/speed was called out by the Skipper. Inputs done by the TDC operator. German boats had a connection from the UZO/scope to the TDC if I'm not mistaken. So it is to my understanding that we can not holler out bearing etc. while in game but we have the simulated TDC while in the scope/TBT. So since we can not holler out to the TDC operator, we play Skipper and TDC operator all at the same time. My confusion is, were does this extra button come in? As far a I can tell you can put the crosshairs were you want, click the update button on the range/AOB/speed set up and this acts like you are hollering out your bearing to the TDC operator.

Exaclty, we play both TDC operator and Skipper. If I move my scope/TBT anywhere around the ship, click on the TDC wheel in the upper right corner this would equate to saying "Mark Bearing". Torpedo should track this. SH3 was the the same. Put the crosshairs were you want, click update and solution was changed to that new input.

This is how it looks to me.

So...it's working fine, no? Don't 'lock' the target, and just press the 'update' button when your periscope is pointing at the bearing you want ('mark' that bearing), and...it should be working fine?

This is how I'm reading it from CCIP post. Only one way to find out for sure....fire up the game and see how she goes:up:. Now, I did this with my stern tubes once and I do not recall the sequence of button pushing etc. I suspect you can update anywhere you want with the scope/TBT just like SH3. I'm going to try tonight.

The fact that you did not change those values IS the problem... Remember, those values that you didn't change were a correct solution for a time in the past, the PK has been tracking and adjusting those values for you over time. You don't want to resubmit any of those old values, all you want to do is update the bearing.

IRL the skipper might also say, "hold the bearing constant". Granted... for that we can transmit zero speed.


Lemme ask this question then... after you launch on first target. You spin the scope to trailing target, enter new range. When you enter the new range, I guess that must also update bearing? That's good, but does it also sharpen the AoB? No, but that actually would be very nice! I'd be very pleased if someone told me I was wrong on that one. Unfortunately, I suspect it will leave the AoB continuously opening... in which case if you had a target on say a 270 heading and then you swung to trailing target and updated range it would leave the AoB opening and your second solution would have the PK thinking the next guy was on maybe a 320 heading. I suspect you're still having some success with this because 1) targets are moving slow 2) you're at relatively close range so +/- 10° on the AoB isn't totally killin ya.

I have a concept in my head of what I'd like a bearing transmitter to do. It could very well be that it's not realistic. I can't really tell from reading all the books what the TDC guys and/or PK was actually doing when the skipper said "Bearing, Mark". I don't have first hand knowledge of the apparatus nor do I know anyone who could say they do, so I'm not gonna pretend or profess that something worked a certain way when I just don't know.

That aside... what I would like a bearing transmitter to do is this. Let's assume I have a fairly good solution. My AoB is good, my speed is off but not too far off, maybe 1 knot. Over time, because I'm off by 1kt on the speed, the solution slips to the stern of the ship. If I fire my torpedos they I know they will miss astern, no doubt. I have to adjust my solution.

At this point, you would say "just update the distance to target". OK, good, distance is updated, bearing is adjusted, new bearing looks good, distance is right, AoB needed to open up a bit... it didn't. If the target was on a 270 heading and I followed the steps above, the PK would now be tracking as if the target was maybe 235... I have to now manually adjust the AoB as well.

It would be nice if you had a Mark button that would allow you to update the bearing and the PK says, "Oh, the ship isn't as close as I thought" and changed bearing but also opened the AoB such that the tracking PK solution is still on the 270 base course, and also adjusted distance accordingly. Basically, just a shift forward or back in the projected target path.

I accept the possibility that I may be asking for a feature here that didn't exist... I honestly don't know how the thing worked in reality. But do not think for a second that I don't fully understand the trig behind the torpedo solution, or more specifically, the "constant bearing" formula.

If someone knows for sure, that what I've described just wasn't a feature, I'm OK with that. But please, if you don't have first or second hand knowledge, or at least some decent resource to point to as a reference please don't post on the thread, "Nah it didn't work like that IRL".

Assuming for a moment that the mark button I've described was just not a feature... then I think I'm OK with the retransmit distance as a workaround for now. I do still wish that I could quickly change bearing without also effecting distance on the PK though. I'd even settle for half... gimme just a bearing update option (that doesn't effect or require me to re-enter distance) and I'll take care of the manual AoB tweaking.

Ya know now that I talk it thru a bit... maybe it does do some of this and I'm just missin it at the moment... need to go play for awhile and stop typing.

Ya know, a halfway decent manual explaining how the blasted gadgets in the game worked would probably go along way to shortening these threads.

Hmm...I see. I guess it wouldn't be hard to pull out the PK panel (upper left) and use it to adjust the observation panel (upper right) to the 'correct' range and AoB before submitting the new bearing.

I think I see your point, though. You want to 'keep' the AoB, speed, and range currently entered into the PK, and just update the bearing.

:hmm: Good discussion here though! :up:

Heheheh... somehow I missed this post.

Hello Neal, nice video.


Apparently that's my problem... I've been trying to hit the moving ships.

Technically, if I had to critique one thing in your video I'd say you shouldn't turn the PK on until you've transmitted all 3 data points. If the PK is set for speed zero, you're OK flippin it on as you suggest. If not it's degrading your firing solution by tracking the aiming point in the wrong direction until you transmit a proper AoB.

Turning on the PK can go either way. I set up everything then turn it on. It starts the movements and keeps track. As you will notice, the primary calculation and solution are usually off. I adjust the perimeter that looks wrong and update again. This scenerio will happen all the way up to firing my torpedoes. When I'm in optimum firing postions the PK gets one last look and update if needed. The tin fish fly:yep:.

Last night was very satifying, I had two DD blowing by me at 14 kts. I was 1400 yards from the first and the PK was dead on his track. One torp set on fast and one torp set on slow. My fast torp went by the bow and the slow torp caught him under the first quarter of he bow. She went down. I quickly moved the scope to the next DD, got range, AOB and speed left alone, fired two at slow....both hit and what a glorious bloom of fire and ashes:yep:. I just wish my men would cheer:oops:

I am positive that there was a bearing transmit button at least for the TBT (Target Bearing Transmitter). TBT=US-UZO, for the U-Boat freaks who might be reading this, but with "The Button".

"Hours passed. Finally I could make out a faint place on the horizon where the haze was a little darker. "Conn - bridge. Enemy in sight. Stand by for a TBT bearing!"
I jammed my binoculars into the TBT, centered on the smudge, pressed the button. The skipper's rasping voice came back: "That's him. How many can you see?""

- Capt. Edward L. Beach, USN, +, describing en encounter with him as XO on the Trigger in his book "Submarine!"

When the skipper says "That's him.", he did cross check the bearing which was transmitted into the TDC by Beach pressing the Target Bearing Transmitter button with what he could see of the enemy on the radar, with which they were tracking him for some time already from beyond visual range.


Well, we can make things up as we go ;). I have never heard of anything like that. If you think it a possibility, it is you who has to produce reference to support it. What the TDC however did was that it displayed the computed bearing in real time according to the data you entered, so you could check your solution by comparing the computed bearing with the sighted bearing and adjust the solution if neccessary. It does that in SHIV, on the inner ring of the lower left hand dial, but only for targets coming in from starboard side. Don't know if this is fixed in patch 1.2.

Really, the TDC is not that complicated or a mystery to understand.
You simply entered FOUR data values independently, and could change any of those independently thereafter as often as you wished. The Position Keeper would simply project the line of the target's travel (meaning adjusting the four values based on your initial input once you get the PK running) over time and update the gyro angle accordingly to those four values you entered.

Those four values were:
Bearing.
Range.
AOB.
Speed.

End of story. I didn't have much time to play SHIV lately, so I'm still not sure if it's true, but some people say bearing will only be transmitted with range. If that is true, that would be not so good, since taking range requires some time and 3 clicks as opposed to hitting one button. If it is transmitted with AOB, this would be bull, too, since your AOB ENTER dial will not update once the PK is active, so if you would want to take bearing again via AOB transmission in the upper right dial, you would also re-transmit the old and outdated AOB.
So the best workaround for the missing "Mark" Button would be to transmit bearing via speed, since this is the value which will most probably stays constant during observations.