If you see Sansal's Milk Cows, don't get surprised. In a meeting of the 24th Flotilla in August, he confirmed me that he authorized the mod to be put there. :yep:

Just wanted to clear this one out. :rock:

What proof are you demanding? If you're asking for proof from the release version, you have to wait for Terrapin's evaluation- and Beery didn't say he had purchased a release copy; his comment that he's sure there's at least one (stolen mod) wasn't offered as definitive proof- it was his assertion, based on the previous actions of the company. Over here, we call that probable cause.

"Scam- a fraudulent scheme, esp for making a quick, illegal profit"
"Swindle- to cheat out of money or other assets, to obtain by fraud or deceit"

I'd say the actions of those involved in Seewolves fit the above definitions- the common theme here is obtaining money through deceit. The bare fact is that the original seewolves contained mods which were used without author's permission. We have correspondence from X1 operatives indicating they knew they used mods improperly. After they were confronted and challenged, they belatedly attempted to gain permission to use these mods- that harkens back to the charge of "scam" and "swindle"...they were marketing a product they didn't have complete rights to.

Until Terrapin finishes his evaluation, we won't know for sure how many stolen mods are used in the release version- he's confirmed one. However, probable cause exists for us to continue to doubt X1's veracity, and their integrity. It seems laughable to criticize people here who express doubt about X1's product; X1 has failed the honesty litmus test, they get no benefit of the doubt. It is not enough for us to prove our claims, it is incumbent upon X1 to establish their credibility.

Several people on this board have posted lengthy proofs regarding this matter. To my mind they have satisfied the burden of proof that X1 attempted to perpetrate a fraud with the development of Seewolves. No one here needs to convince me any further of X1's wrongdoing- in fact, it is up to X1 (or their supporters, be there any) to provide proof of their honesty...and ultimately, as a responsible company concerned with profit margins and developing a customer base, they should be interested in winning back/over the doubters among us. Or do they still fear exposure of thier product?

There is a difference between being extremely sceptical towards X1 and, now that the release version is out, using libelous expressions like "X1=Thieves", "scam" and "swindle" and "stolen mods" - and all that without a proof.

Call them thieves or scammers as soon as they have lost a lawsuit, when they were branded as "thieves" by a court of law. Until then, don´t use such expressions. Don´t forget, libel is illegal.

Have you even read anything of the other posts onthis subject..

WHAT MORE BLASTED PROOF DO YOU NEED!!!!!!

These people outright admitted to stealing mods without permission..that makes them THEIVES.Then planning on selling it for a profit makes them SCAMMERS and FRAUDS..end of story..case closed.

Only thing is they got caught and then did a backpeddle.

And I for one do not care one bit if they did remove the mods in question.That does not make it right all of a sudden.They still had the intentions of stealing and selling for profit the work of others and that makes them admitted theives and frauds.The intentions were there...that is all that matters.

Don´t shout at me.

I and most others want to see proof that the final version contains stolen parts. What they did in the past is basically irrelevant from a legal standpoint.

Ok, I see your point. Essentially, what they did previously is irrelevant now that the new release is out, and therefore the boyoctt X1 banners etc should all come down, until/unless we can prove the X1 addon still contains improperly obtained materials? Is that it? An interesting point :hmm: ...you're basically asking how long do we continue to punish X1 for past misdeeds? A hard question given X1's demonstrated lack of integrity- they did purloin mods, lie about having consent, stonewall attempts to gain information, and attempt to intimidate members of this community through personal attacks...kind of hard to forgive all of that, at least right away.

Libel is defined as defaming in print- defaming in turn is the false or unjustified injury of the good name or reputation of another. Calling X1 thieves after it has been shown that they misappropriated others work is neither false nor unjustified. Calling an attempt to make money by selling others work (freely available) a scam or a swindle is likewise neither false nor unjustified. Libel is illegal, just as theft of intellectual property and fraud are illegal. Who has the heavier burden of proof?

You say we should not use such expressions...in all honesty, I ask "why not?" Did X1's actions with the so-called "beta version" fit the definitions I gave above for a scam and/or swindle? If so, then calling them scammers and swindlers is perfectly acceptable. The only question we need be concerned with is this: is the criticism of X1, manifested by the banners etec, unjustified or false?

Originally, the answer is no- everything we said previously has been verified and substantiated. But like I said, you raise a good point- for argument's sake, what if the new pack is free of purloined materials and represents a new product, one which is immune to charges of fraud and/or theft of intellectual property? Although we are free to call for a continued boycott (and may be serving our own interests to do so), can we continue to carry the X1 Pirates banners? Our anti-X1 sig blocks? :hmm:

Ultimately though, my fear is this will remain an academic issue (though I would like to hear your thoughts on what you think a reasonable tactic would be?)...I believe there will be not one, but several mods of questionable heritage in this new product. Perhaps sufficiently altered to avoid a legal challenge of theft, but certainly not a whole new product- there's really no incentive for them to "reinvent the wheel", when the mods are freely available for them to download and alter as they see fit. :nope:

I ll jhust sit and wait for terrapin.
or should i say i ll jhust sit back and watch terrapin blast them away


hopefully. :D :oops: :D

aint no dum Guy that.

this will take awhile...all I can say at this point is that sounds are definitely stolen - and the -'campaign' is more than buggy. With one word:

Crap

.

Sorry about the yelling..

Just your asking people to not call them what they themselves have admitted to being and doing fits all definitions of the word thieves and scammers and frauds.That alone would stand up as a confession in any court.Whether or not they actually used the mods is irrelevent.As I stated the intention was there and that shows their integrity is none to sturdy for people to give them the benifit of the doubt.

You do make a good point on waiting and seeing if the release has any stolen mods..The big problem is that they have already done the damage to their reputations and for some people X1's past behavior is unforgivable and leaves alot of doubt as to whether or not they did remove them.

Crap is your personal opinion, and do not count as facts :arrgh!: .
However, your opinion has influence on my oppinion. :up:

sounds are stolen you say, and little is left to prove it, filesize, stereo or mono, direct compare of frequencies via professional sound program etc. I believe.

I know it is a big package, and possibly a boring task, and frustrating too, given that you might find your Friends work "stolen".

I do not envy you for the task you take up on, and i have patience, lots of patience.

LOL

CRAP it is.

:rock: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Cheers, man...

Apparently, they even left the AOTD clan logo on one of the boat interior images. I'm sure Terrapin can easily confirm this, as it would be a tga image in the Textures folder. We've already been told that AOTD didn't authorize use of their stuff, so if this is the case, then I don't see how anyone could possibly defend X1 - there would be no doubt as to their criminal status.

Not really. It´s not illegal to boycott them and everybody can use their "Boycott X1" banners as long as they like. But they shouldn´t contain libelous statements. "Why pay for free mods?" is ok.

We should keep this whole thing highly professional. No flames, no personal attacks, no defamation, no guesses, just pure 100% facts.

Confirmed. FACT.

There are no guesses. X1 are thieves - they've admitted it. The only question left unanswered is whether or not their published work contains the same stolen stuff they said they would include in the add-on. They stole mods and they said they were going to include them. I tend to believe them. It only remains to be seen whether they followed through on what they said they were going to do. I'm not sure why you're insisting on maintaining their innocence when they themselves have admitted their wrongdoing, and their intention to publish stolen mods. This was all known fact a long time ago. It's not like we're pulling these accusations out of thin air.

What they did in the past was wrong, but it wasn´t really clear if the final release would contain improperly obtained materials or not. And don´t tell me that you were 100% sure about it, because nobody could knew it before actually analyzing the final product... The big question is, will the publishers pull it from the market when we find enough "stolen" mods?

In 1971 John Kerry went to Paris and conducted secret negotiations with the enemy of the Untied States during a time of war. This is a direct violation of the Constitution and for a reserve naval officer, high treason punishable by death.
John Kerry also participated in a meeting of the VVAW in which the assassination of two members on congress was discussed (he voted against this). For a reserve naval officer not reporting this is high treason punishable by death. He did not report this, denied being there until films proved he was there. Oh, that meeting!!!
97% of the people that served with John Kerry in Vietnam (Mostly democrats) stated he was unfit for command and actively worked to prevent him becoming president.
So why hasn’t John Kerry been tried and shot in a public square for treason??
Well, In Massachusetts being a traitor gets you elected. (and nominated to be president, with great satisfaction by republicans, whew, thank God they didn’t nominate one of those guys that would have beaten Bush!))
Am I upset that John Kerry is not being charged for obvious treason? No more than OJ and MJ getting off for their offenses. It serves no positive purpose to dwell on things that can not be changed
Do I care if X-1 makes money or are beaten to death in the square John Kerry deserves to be shot in after being found guilty of the obvious treason?
Only to the extent we were past this and started back to constructively tweaking SH3.
We are not the people that will buy Seawolves.
Those that will buy it will likely never visit this site to hear what opinions are stated and what facts are proved.
Seawolves has been made, gone Gold in both German and English (can someone explain what that means, I don’t now) and those that made it are working on a new project.
Even they know when it is time to move on.
I too am interested in new facts but am unhappy with any actions that diminish and detract from what is the positive aspects of SH3 users at this site.
I look forward to the complete analysis from Terripin but wish the hate preaching would tone down.
It may get and amen from the choir, but it won’t attract converts and it certainly takes time away from improving and enjoying SH3.

Nothing you do or say about X-1 will make SH3 better. But, it will take away from the efforts that will.

Wulfmann

(PS, what I said about JK is as relevant as the continued trashing of X-1, something now in the past that can not be changed, both items)

Well, I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt at this stage. As far as I'm concerned, since they have shown that they are only too willing to defraud modmakers if they can get away with it, they have the burden of proof. This is not a court of law. It's a discussion forum for people to state opinions. It is my opinion that the people behind X1 are liars, thieves, cheats, and that they will happily defraud people if they see the opportunity. Nothing they have done so far has made me think that my opinion of them is in error.

Damn, just when I wanted too shout "X1 SUCKS!"... :hmm:

The 2 cents of a noob...

Coming from other modding communities (HalfLife, Unreal, etc), I can honestly say that having the product of your hard work, blood, sweat and tears stolen and used for someone else's profit without so much as a nod of thanks in the credits is not only insulting, it's a hell of an incentive to find a new hobby.

I just got STARTED on this game, so I want the mod community to stay alive. Stuff like this is how mod communities die... :nope:

Glad you didn't make it personally saying Len Hjalmarson and Steffen Trombke are suckers...