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- General Topics (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=175)

- - Ferguson (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=215056)

August

11-26-14 05:14 PM

I thought this was an interesting take on the issue.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...26-column.html

Quote:

The talking heads and the politicians keep stressing that we should learn from our mistakes, that we should change things. But what, exactly, do they want to change? They're vague and purposely so. Should we change the way we talk about race in America? Perhaps, but it's become so easy, and profitable for some, and we've memorized the rituals and we know the symbolism. I don't think we'll change it any time soon.

Oberon

11-26-14 05:29 PM

Doubt there'll be much activity tonight, it's snowing in the area at the moment apparently so that'll put a dampener on activities.

Armistead

11-26-14 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc (Post 2264352)

Thank you for explaining it for me.

Have just seen the Danish news about the situation in Ferguson. this time it was not so much about the shooting, but about alternative "TV-channels"

In this program some person from Info wars was interviewed by the Danish journalist and so was many more and they all said that the authorieties controlled the mainstram media.

Sorry for this little offtopic detour

Markus

Here's the complete report, but broken down by sheet if you want to read just the witness reports. Amazing how people seeing the same thing can see it so differently...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rown-case.html

Armistead

11-26-14 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vienna (Post 2264348)

Conflicting witness testimony was a big factor why the Grand Jury voted not to return an indictment. Some of the witnesses not only contradicted their own previously given statements and/or testimony, a number of them actually recanted their testimony when placed before the Grand Jury under oath. This, and a number of other factors, resulted in no indictment...

Guilty as charged? The officer has never been formally charged for any of his actions and, as I recall, there is that nagging issue of "innocent until proven guilty". The purpose of a Grand Jury is not to determine guilt, it is determine if the state, in the form of local and statewide law enforcement (DAs), has the ability to bring charges against an individual or individuals. The Grand Jury does not assess guilt in any way. It merely looks at the evidence and information supplied by the state and rules on whether a charge or charges should be brought and the case should go to trial. The process is a more formal and painstaking version of a preliminary hearing a person who is charged in "regular" criminal matters goes through. In a preliminary hearing, a single judge hears the prosecution present the state's case against the defendant(s), hears a rebuttal by the defense, and then rules if there is any legal impairment for te case to go to a formal trial...

In the case of the Ferguson Grand Jury, it was an unusual situation: the normal, common procedure is for the DA to only lay out the evidence and information required to sway the jury to return and indictment. There is no defense presented. The Ferguson DA, however, took the additional step of presenting evidence and information that would have been helpful to the defense, if the case went to trial. While this is not unprecedented, it is highly unusual. It would be safe to say the DA went out of his way to bring as much information as possible, bot pro and con to the Grand jury...

<O>

If it were a normal process, this case never would've went to the GJ...

vienna

11-26-14 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2264377)

If it were a normal process, this case never would've went to the GJ...

Very, very true. While I sympathize with anyone who loses a child or other family member, in this case I feel the authorities in Ferguson and in the state of Missouri have gone to extraordinary efforts to accommodate the Brown family and their questions. There comes a time when one has to face that there is no more to be reasonably done or possibly done. Now its up to the Federal authorities to see if any action will be brought for possible violations of civil rights...

<O>

Oberon

11-26-14 06:20 PM

http://i.imgur.com/VsH2KQK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AepRFhI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4eOrkMB.jpg

http://cjayneteach.com/blog/wp-conte...pers_quote.png

Buddahaid

11-26-14 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2264376)

I'm not surprised at all. People tend to see what they expect to see to a certain degree which makes eyewitness accounts unreliable.

There was a show about Roswell I saw some years ago that had a recreation of the crash sight made, and just one person dressed in military gear at the sight. I think he had a rifle. Anyway, a group of people who thought they were being taken on a nature walk were led past the scene and asked to recall what they saw. The answers were all over the map.

Armistead

11-26-14 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid (Post 2264400)

Well, you can get a feel for honestly, those that seemed the most bias often became wishy washy. Even being a GJ the prosecutor used common tactics to get them to repeat the story over and over and often it was very different. One witness, cop just pointed the gun out the window, Brown fell, cop got out and blasted away executing. One saw two cops in the cop car during the fight....just the usual mess of confusion.

Buddahaid

11-26-14 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2264384)

http://i.imgur.com/VsH2KQK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AepRFhI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4eOrkMB.jpg

http://cjayneteach.com/blog/wp-conte...pers_quote.png

Great to see and I wish they were there before the rain. It's the right message and gives hope. Maybe they were?

ikalugin

11-26-14 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead (Post 2264402)

I heard that human witnesses often, well, get their information mixed up shall we say. They are not necessary lying as such though - it is just that human memory is very much imperfect.

CaptainHaplo

11-26-14 11:29 PM

Some witnesses did "see" things certain ways - that contradicted the forensic evidence and they stuck to their versions anyway.

Others changed their story.

Still others later admitted that they didn't actually "see" what happened, that they testified on what they "assumed" had happened or what they had "heard" on the street.

Ultimately, when faced with the forensic evidence - certain facts were clear.

Brown attacked the officer while the officer was in his car - resulting in him receiving a wound to his hand while he was engaged in the struggle at the vehicle. This was demonstrated by Brown's blood and DNA being found INSIDE the officer's vehicle.

Upon fleeing and being chased by Wilson, Brown stopped, turned and advanced toward the officer he already had assaulted. This is shown by Brown's blood being 25 feet PAST where he fell.

Brown was killed by the shot that entered the TOP of his head - which shows he had his head down (as if charging as claimed by Wilson) when the fatal shot struck.

There were NO entry wounds into Brown's back or rear body at all, discrediting all claims that he was shot while fleeing. Brown also landed face down - but there was no entry wound to the back of his head - discrediting the claim that Wilson stood over him and executed him.

Given that the "gentle giant" was seen aggressively assaulting the owner of the store he had just robbed, the facts (and some eyewitness testimony) simply fit a whole lot more reasonably Wilson's version of events than any other claim. Brown was on drugs, his judgment was significantly impaired, and his actions were the cause of his death.

People say they want justice for Michael Brown. One could argue that he already received it.

Rilder

11-27-14 09:23 AM

Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. .. Video

Quote:

The video, however, shows officers in a cruiser pull up within several feet of Rice, who was not with a group, but by himself underneath a gazebo. Immediately, even before the car stops rolling, the cruiser's passenger side door opens, an officer emerges and fires at Tamir, who drops to the ground.

August

11-27-14 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder (Post 2264517)

Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. .. Video

Michael Brown isn't "enough", rather he is a flawed and unsympathetic distraction that cuts the argument off at the knees. Instead of real victims like this child we get thugs like Brown as the poster boy of racial injustice.

Armistead

11-27-14 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder (Post 2264517)

Well if Mike Brown isn't enough, how about this 12 year old black kid who got shot and killed by police recently. .. Video

Well, one thing is clear in both cases, both times officers didn't keep proper distance and put themselves in positions where they had to act or were attacked in seconds.

Had Wilson not back right up to Brown with his window open, he wouldn't have been attacked. Instead, he should've stopped and kept proper distance. Not sure about the 12 year old if the cops didn't know he was there when they pulled up, but appears they did.

Not that these are criminal actions, but certainly poor actions not following training..

Skybird

11-27-14 10:29 AM

We do not know why the policecar was rushing so fast onto the playground, don't we. But during that rapid approach, for the cops it probably must have appeared they were dealing with a weapon that was being swung at them.

Maybe they were not aware that the boy was the one they were being called for, and noticed their mistake too late, then already being very close. Maybe they say the wepaon early and considered surprising overwhelming by rapid approach the best chance to avoid being getting fired at. We still do not know, or do we?

Why they were rushing onto the scene and stopped in front of the boy that suddenly, must be examined. The opening of fire afterwards only seems to be the logical result from that first event. Look how they jumpoed behind the car to take cover. I am quite sure they both thought that danger was imminent.

In a country with so much gun-crime and gun-incidents like the US it certainly is no clever idea to let people play with fake guns that mimic the originals so closely that you cannot differ them from real once at first glance. These ultra-realistically looking toys do not belong into toy shops.

For the time being I assume that the cops were surprised by the situation, maybe it was their responsibility due to the way of their approach, maybe not - we don't know so far. But I also assume that racist attitudes or motives play no role in this case.

If it was not their fault or they had good reasons to approach the way they did, I hope they will not get "sacrificed" to avoid "spilling fuel" inot the fire over Ferguson because officials think they must not let another officer "off the hook" and then face an angry public.

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