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I am going to bed now cos my head is hurting trying to think what the formular could be. We need a mathmatician here. |
Hi, I have posted twice here but no one has responded, has anyone had any success with the following problem:
Year mid 41 in campaign via SH3 Commander, have no problems with dd's sensing me unles I do something silly, if I close in on a convoy (silent running), can set off my torpedo's then get the crap out of there!! they find me most times at this point, then the main problem starts: They drop dc's with pin point accuracy and you can never escape them, even after 2 hours of trying once! :down: they can turn almost as sharp as me at the same instance, have tried all tricks to shake them loose (going deep, run silent, stopping - that's bad!, change directions) but no go! :-? is this a sensor problem or something else? Just wondered if this issue has been addressed. I don't know where you guys get the patience to keep going as you do but many thanks :up: and keep going! :D Cheers |
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We need to do lot of test now, but no more night mare, now job and job is only needed. Quote:
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Interesting if DDs disturbing them selves by own noise when hunting in a group, and be covered by background noise due to strom waves. Quote:
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Then we can adjust a speciphied value for each sensor. Tha fact was, as we cannot to adjust sensivity zero into AI-Sensors.dat, the program was not reading our changes into 4 or 5 sensors corresponding to ubber DDs. Quote:
Open the file with the minitweaker and edit sensivity value for a determined sensor, if you let it as zero, the program will take the value from Sim.cfg. |
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So sorry Reece, please dont take bad....... the matter was we had not the solution for you...... some of us have the same problem than you, and this topic is for that :rotfl: But we are more near to the sulution now :lol: Here there are two main streams....... People having dummy DDs, wich needs to be touched in the a@# to react and start hunt on you. :rotfl: Case of CB in example. People having Cancervero DDs (the hell gate guard dog with 3 heads) :rotfl: Case of me and you, in example. We are attempting to understand here how the files works to manage DDs capability. We found two big obstacles : The renamed files still works, i dont know why, but they do it, and the game do not react to our changes. Solved. The sensors sensivity was linked, we was able to manage it into Sim.cfg file, but only those who was unlocked from AI_Sensors.dat. Solved. (few minuts ago :P ) TT had solved it giving us the file to manage them with Mini Tweaker program, and adjust a individual value for each sensor into AI_Sensors.dat. Download TimeTraveller Mini Tweaker program, add the file i put the link in the previous page, and you are ready to manage sensors beam angles, sensors sensivity, sensors bearings, sensors depth. Plus you can make changes into Sim.cfg, many more values there. Plus you can edit decoys surface and life time, explanation for this in this topic, and if we be lucky, TT may be can give us the file to manage noise. Stay here, i am sure good things will born from all this effort. :up: |
alright, i'm not sure what the hell was going on before, but anyway...
ai_sensors sensitivity set to 0, sim.cfg w/ named sensors as before, all hydrophones sens 0.05, detection time 1. i thought i was getting uber sensors before, not sure why things have changed. now i get pinged at whatever is set the max asdic range is, and get picked up by hydrophones at whatever max hydrophone range is. the pinging i can evade by going deep and diving under the beam eg at relatively close range they can't ping me (min range set at 10, but "dead zone" depends on how deep you are). current problem is hydrophones -- picked up at silent speed 1000s of m away. i think the next thing to change, as ducimus suggested, is the noise factor. if this sim.cfg individual entries things is true, we can give late war hydrophones a lower noise factor to simulate inc sensitivity. anyway, continuing to tweak... nb -- by the way, did you guys notice that if playing w/ god's eye mode on, the circle around the escorts representing sensor ranges change w/ your ai_sensors tweaks? nice little touch, i thought. |
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Then try noise factor 1 and wave factor 0.5 If it is too much try editing sensor beam angles, bearing and vertical. Try and comment. I had the inverse problem than you, i am undetectable at silent running, and near to the same at slow, i need to put 1/3 to be detectable, except if i had the bad luck to be pinged. I like it...... and may be real. Quote:
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Curretnly i have a noise factor of 0.4 and a wave factor of 0.2
Default values for both are: Wave =0.5 noise= 1.0 In earlier testing i halved that amount Wave =0.25 noise= 0.5 later still i made it Wave =0.20 noise= 0.4 But this is without knowledge of sensitivyt ratings of the individual passive sonars. When i get home i plan to set them all to a sensitivity rating of 0.3 or 0.4 Then readjust Wave =0.0 noise= 1.0 What you *should* ( i hope) experience then is normal behavior up until you get close to the DD (im gussing around 1200-2000 meters) at which distance he should be able to detect you no matter how slow or silent you go. If you experience this, try it again to duplicate it. If you duplicate this behavior, then try this: Wave =0.0 noise= 0.5 Im theorizing that you wont be detected at max hydrphone range, but you will be detected at twice the range to the DD as you were before. If not more. So for example if at: Wave =0.0 noise= 1.0 and the DD detects you at (for our examples sake) 2000 meters, plain as day, may as well be on the surface type of thing and hes fairly consitant about it. and if you readjust to: Wave =0.0 noise= 0.5 and the DD detects you at 4000 to 6000 meters, plain as day, may as well be on the surface... and hes consitant about it. THEN add in the wave factor. Toss in a 0.13 or something and see what happends. THeoritically you should see a decrease in the range he sees you plain as day, and hopefully see some diminishing returns on his detection. In my minds eye im hoping noise factor is setting a hard limit on his detection, and wave factor as a soft limit on his detection that functions within his hard limit as defined by the noise factor. ..heh, i hope that makes sense. |
playing around w/ sensitivity 1st
results -- changing sens doesn't affect max range of detection. rather, it affects how quickly it goes from a "tentative" detection to a firm contact ie how quickly the stealth meter goes from green to red. you're still detectable at the same range, it just takes longer for the escort to actually pinpoint you. i think to play w/ range, we have to mess around w/ noise factor, as ducimus has so often suggested. i think, however, from my settings, that noise factor will have to be increased to decrease the max range at which escorts can hear you. does anyone have any historical info re hydrophone ranges? i saw 1 source (posted on page 2) but nothing specific. also, would be great to get info on us active sonars. |
Good news!
So far im getting the results i expected. The setup: Seas calm, no fog, no particpation, no nada, except winds at 5 knots from direction 0. Black swan escort starts about 10 to 11K due north of me. He travels south, i travel north at periscope depth, and we meet in the middle, bows on. AI_sensor.dat: All passive sonar Except AI_hydrophone, is set at 8500 meters, sensitivty set at 0. I am using value given in sim.cfg, (hopefully) of 0.03. -------------------------------- Test Run number 1: Sim.cfg Detection time=1 Sensitivity=0.03 Height factor=0 Waves factor=0.0 Speed factor=15 Noise factor=1.0 Silent running: Stealth meter went red on the average at about 1000 (guesstimate) meters from the DD. I had one detection but i think it was a fluke, i reran 3 more times and was never detected despite red meter. Ahead slow: Stealth meter went red on the average about 1000 to 1200 meters from the DD. Detection occured at around or within 500 meters from the DD (guesstimate) 1/3rd: Stealth meter went red at around 1700 to 1800 meters. Detection occured at around 1200 meters. Flank: Meter went red at approximately 4500 meters, i did no further testing after this. ----------------------------------------- Test run number 2: Sim.cfg Detection time=1 Sensitivity=0.03 Height factor=0 Waves factor=0.0 Speed factor=15 Noise factor=0.5 Silent running: Stealth meter went red at about 1K, out of 2 or 3 attempts not once was i detected. Odd. Ahead slow: Stealth meter went red at approximatley 1900-2000 meters from the DD. Detection occured around 1300 -1500 meters. 1/3rd: Stealth meter went red at approximately 2700 to 3000 meters. Detection occured around 2400 to 2500 meters. Flank: Stealth meter went red at 6000 meters. Well the ratio isnt exatly a perfect 2 to 1 on the noise filter adjustments, but it is scaling like i hoped it would. All i have to do now, drop the noise filter down a wee bit more, and then start adding the wave filter in little bits until i get somethign resembling desired results. Question now is, what exactly should i tune it to? |
All i can say is WOW!
Ok so im fine tuning it now. Im not sure what my target is, im guessing that a DD should start to hear me at about 3000 meters at slow and 4000 meters at 1/3rd. Either that or 2000 meters slow and 3000 meters at 1/3rd. Not sure, take your pick.. But ... WOW... Ok the default is 0.5 wave, and 1.0 noise. Well heres some fine tuning.. I just ran two tests.. ------------------------------------------- First test:: 0.35 Noise, 0.0 wave factor stealth meter goes red: 1/3rd, at about 3600 meters slow, at about 2500-2600 meters. --------------------------------------------------- Second test: 0.30 noise factor, 0.0 wave factor stealth meters goes red: 1/3rd, at about 3900 meters slow, at about 2800 meters. ------------------------------- Ho'kay me thinks time to start adding in the wave factor. Considering the orginal was 0.5, i decide to start small, with 0.1 Ok, now comes the kick in the pants. At 0.30 noise factor and 0.1 wave factor at 1/3rd speed the steath meter didnt go red until i was like 500 meters in front of the DD, at slow speed the meter didint go red until i was right next to him! HOly smokes! and the default is 0.5?! I think its time i cut 0.1 in half and star working with 0.05 and restart from there.. GOOD GREIF! |
Good Morning all
Ducimus Nice report, it provides great info into the noise and wave factor. I wonder what the difference would be if you did the exact same in storm conditions? Then we will get an understanding of how much deviation is occurring. Methods that I am trying I am doing exactly opposite as to you but only with the intention of giving different tests perspectives. No one can say that we never looked at all angles that way. Hydrophones I have presuming that all passisves were set to take their readings from the sim.cfg as I am not seeing any individual sensitivity ratings. With this in mind and the fact I am already getting good results by tweaking the max ranges of each passive to react in game similar to real life (if all goes well of course). I will unless of course better results become available, stick to this course of action for the time being. I think we will find that the tweaking can be done from both perspectives and eventually one will need to tweak the other for fine tuning. I am ready to drop my course of action the minute any other good results come in. What I mean by this, is, the fact that I am not bothered about who's theory is right or wrong, I am just going to go with popular opinion and what results pan out to be best. It sounds like I am going against the grain but I am not :up: . Hope you all understand. Actives This is another subject all together. Because I feel that Redwine and Col7777 etc etc know how this type of behaviour should work and I do not, I am a little bit like a sheep following the flock. I have only a very rough Idea about the cones, arcs and depths added with aspect and noise. Actives are massive headache for me. I just did a quick tweak this morning and dumbed down the high sensitivity numbers to 0.05 and around that figure. I tested this in 505. Boy oh boy, they still had a lock on me for most of the time, even when deep, but I distintly observed more randon DC behaviour. Sometimes they were late dropping and sometimes they were early but always fairly close by. I have yet to see the uber turns but have not yet looked for that so am standing bye for Redwines tweaks into the late war DD's. Like I say, I think others here will be by far better suited at playing with actives than I am. Conclusion I am just in the midst of setting my game up to run with RUB, SH3 commander, and then I am going to start knuckling into what I can do to help i.e. tests results etc. Wondering Is it me, or are the active sensors not affected by aspect. The waves factor setting, I can understand but noise ??????????. I notice aspect is considered in other cfg file for supposed sub crew or is this cfg also DD crew and it maybe this file that crewratings get their differences from Hmmmmmmm. |
I have come to the conclusion that wave factor is whats making the DD's freaking DEAF.
Get this, with a wave factor of 0.005 (far smaller then 0.1, or later 0.05), and a noise factor of 0.30 At 1/3rd the stealth meter doesnt go red until im like.. 1 type 7 stub length away from him, and i just cruised right on by. (crew rating 3 DD btw) I did the same AT FLANK SPEED!!, same results. To that end i opted to boost the sensitivty. I tried 0.04 first to go along with the 0.005 wave factor and 0.30 noise factor. Same results. Later still i bosted it to 0.5. Same results. To this end im going to do two things: 1.) adjust the wave factor the other direction, ill try 1. Maybe the numbers work the opposite direction.. *shrug* failing that, 2.) zero out the wave factor and just fine tune the noise factor that makes the stealth meter go red at say, 1/3rd at 2000 meters, and slow 1000 meters or somewhere there abouts and call it quits. As so far i am amazed at how much the wave factor makes the DD's deaf. EDIT: there is one caveat to my testing, its from an optimal aspect angle (bows on), ill have to try it with him to my broadside at least once. |
Ducimus,
Early on when we first started these tests, just out of shear curiosity I doubled all the values in the sim.cfg and didn't notice much difference, I only did one test though. I didn't mess with anything in the Sensors folder, I was just messing around to see what would happen. |
Some sensor info now to be posted.
Some may be good some bad. I will keep posting as I find British Surface Sonar Pre 1945 Type 144 Type Hull mounted Range N/A In service 1942 The Type 144 was an active set designed for use with AS mortars such as Hedgehog. The transducers were carried in a streamlined gyrostabilised dome under the hull. Type 144Q Type Hull mounted Range N/A In service 1943 The Type 144Q was a modified Type 144. A 'Q' attachment was fixed to the transducer dome and angled down 15 degrees. This was to maintain contact with deep targets at short range. It is this Q that worries me. I need to start looking in the american DD equipment files to ensure they are using the Q reerences as there equipment and in fact are not using type144 and the q stuff is accross the board on evry DD. Type 147P Type Hull mounted Range N/A In service 1943 The Type 147P was used for depth finding. ??????????? 1) Bow mounted sonars are today mounted on most frigates and destroyers, since they are rather easy to incorporate and do not require any adaptations that might have adverse effects on the construction of the ship. In general, all bow mounted sonars can be used in both, active and passive modes. They are usually installed in the bulb of the ship, but have the disadvantage of suffering to flow noise. This means that the faster the ship is moving the faster the water passed down the bow, and the bulb is more likely to cause the flow noise, which covers any external noises, making them harder to detect. High speed movements of the ship also create air bubbles in water surrounding the bow: air is especially bad then it bounces sound waves off. Another problem connected with ship movement is that of machinery noise. Every ship is getting noisier the faster it moves, causing air bubbles to snap in the water, cavitation of propellers, louder engine noises etc. Therefore, slower speeds are advised for submarine hunting. 2) Hull mounter sonars are usually mounted just behind the bow, at about one third of the hull down from the bow. This position offers the advantage that there is nothing that creates air bubbles – like the bulb in which the bow mounted sonars are usually positioned. Yet, the disadvantage is that hull mounted sonars detoriate the ship’s hydrodynamic form, suffer from additional flow noise, and have a limited field of “view”. Specifically, under specific conditions, hull mounted sonars cannot detect submarines operating near the bottom of the sea. They can also not be used in both, the passive and active modes at once. |
Ok for clarification i just discovered that Wave factor does indeed work in the opposite direction numberwise.
In otherwords, in the case with noise factor the closer you get to 0, the farther a DD can hear. So at a given speed, whereas at 0.5 a DD can hear you only so far, he can hear you alot farther at 0.3 NOT SO with wave factor. Zero im guessing 0 is OFF, but 0.005 is a really high wave factor effect. Note this: at 0.30 noise factor and 0.0 wave factor: 1/3rd speed, the stealth meters goes red at around 3900 meters SLow speed, it goes red at about 2800 meters. Now,...AT: at 0.30 noise factor and 0.9 wave factor 1/3rd speed goes red at about 2300 meters slow goes red at about 1600 meters. NOw im getting somewhere! :rock: EDIT: err well at least i think it works the opposite direction... maybe its late (and im really hungry lol) but im getting varried results now, Maybe my memories trashed and i need to reboot. New plan of attack. Put wavefactor back at default (0.5) and start raising noise factor back up until i get detection within the range that i want it. |
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