A chilly northern holliday. :)

Heh, shame that stuff on pirania series of small displacement subs was cleaned up.

The Swedish Navy is highly interested in finding this sub

However the Swedish Government ain't ´cause it would give a huge diplomatically crisis with Russia. Of course they are interested to find out what it is too, if we look at it military.


Nessie?? Call the Swedish navy and tell them, they are hunting a Scottish tourist who love water and are swimming around Stockholm.

Well, there aren't that many subs in the baltic fleet and majority of the small displacement subs are also well known, and out of them absolute majority is delivered by a parent sub and are used for deep water operations.

So the possible Russian candidate would be pirania series.
http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/215/0N99J.jpg

I wonder if it left tracks in the seabed like the last one...now that was an interesting case. :yep:

I would thoink though that making tracks in sea bed is still better than leaving a permanent mark on Baton Rouge if you know what I mean.

I guess it is all smoke and mirrors, maybe even once more trying to turn Sweden against evil Russia.

" ... Some experts insist that propeller noises were mixed up with the sounds of nature, while others suspect other NATO members tested the defence of a neutral Sweden. ..."

http://rt.com/news/prime-time/sweden...arine-mystery/


" ... despite the hullabaloo, there was never any evidence the Soviets were responsible. Incredibly, the only Swedish tapes of the submarine propeller sounds from the Harsfjarden hunt, which might have helped identify the vessels, were curiously erased. Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence confiscated the only other recording from the Harsfjarden hunt, held by Norway, a U.S. ally in NATO. ..."

Seems have been british and US subs all along:
http://mentalfloss.com/article/27379...gainst-soviets

Remember Olof Palme.


Some more:

The secret war against Sweden:
http://books.google.de/books?id=cN-E...waters&f=false

"After a Soviet Whiskey submarine was stranded in 1981 in the Swedish

archipelago, massive submarine intrusions took place within Swedish

waters – later described as the first Soviet military initiative against a

Western European state since the Berlin crisis.

Today, all evidence for Soviet intrusions appears to have been

manipulated, or simply invented. Classified documents point to covert US

and UK activity."


It still may be a russian sub. Why not. All nations are doing it, everywhere.

Or the rocks :03:

A Swedish expert think it could be

Triton-NN the Swedish Navy is chasing.

Markus

Navigation errors can be deadly. Though ramming the French does not count as a navigational error :p

Friends there are ONE big evidence that say it is russian.

The communication from somewhere around stockholm and Kalinigrad. Two of them one open distress call the last was encrypted.

According to FRA(SigInt)

There are people in Sweden who says it's no sub, its the Swedish Navy who want more money.

Markus

Well I don't think that a such light craft could get into that area of operations,so I would still say that pirania series is a more probable candidate.

Then i do not understand the hystery. If the sub is damaged, they should probably help it instead of "chasing", regardless in which waters it is in, or from which nationality.
They can exchange their f.. protest notes later.

I'm no expert on Mini Subs

I think that the choice of submarine depends on the type of operation.

Markus

Well as far as I remember Triton-NN looks like this:

Ie it is a submersible speed boat, I am not sure even if any were actually fielded.

Hi Mapuc,
i do not know if you even read what i wrote, about those intrusions into swedish waters.
This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then they were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitating russian subs, repeatedly breaking swedish territorial waters and by this convinving the swedish government to keep to the NATO, and have no negotiations with Russia.
(The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russian origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato designation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub, beached within swedish territorial waters).


And maybe i do not have to remind you, but since you asked about Olof Palme (NOT Palmer):


1987 New Prime Minister Olof Palme murdered on the streets of Stockholm.

Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.

The swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.

A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:

Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."

Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.

The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done.
The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
The "police trail" as it was called, was neverollowed, and Palme's death never clarified.

:hmm2:

Sorry Catfish I had read your first answer and sorry I didn't reply.

Yes there was indication that some of these violations could have been American subs.

Palme. There are many theories about who and why and this Police-track is one of them. Many Swedes still believes it was the Police who did it.


What if I also told that the reason to why these policemen/officers should have killed Palme, was his love to Russia. They was convinced that Palme would sell Sweden to Sovjet.
Markus

Nah, that's just business as normal. :up:

Of course they thought so. But was Palme really a "Russia-lover" who wanted to "sell Sweden" ?
Is this not a bit ridiculous ?
Is a suspicion enough, to plain murder the prime minister of a nation ?

And of course, he was a social democrat. And anyone not being straight right wing, must be a communist and a traitor, by NATO standards.

I think your officers put their love to NATO above their oath to their own country. Bad enough they still seem to be in exalted position.
If they are the murderers, they deserve at least to be tried for high treason. Of course, this will never happen.

I found a very interesting article in the Swedish News paper aftonbladet. se.
By W. H

Have used google translate

"Secrecy creates speculations

Short summary.
Are we one hundred percent sure that a violation of Swedish waters occurred? Answer: No.
If the place is Russia, where the prime suspect? Answer: Yes
Can there be any other type of NATO? Answer: Yes

The grainy image of what could be some kind of submarine adds very little in practice. Although military experts can not seem to say what it is that tipster caught on picture

The picture is additionally taken two days after the surgery published. I suspect it will turn up many grainy images of defense for underwater vehicles as public speaking in the archipelago, but that could just as well be seals, rocks in the water or driftwood.

The quickest releases picture suggests that it is the only "picture proof" defense has for the suspected violations.

The defense also rejects SvD's data on emergency call and shaken submarine but is more vague with regard to encrypted communications

"Worth remembering"
Amid the hysterical atmosphere that prevails, it may be worthwhile to recall some things.

Sweden's ability to hunt submarines are much worse now than in the 80s. Because they suspected violations ceased soon after the Soviet collapse as has been piecemeal poised down the Swedish ability.

If a violation actually occurred, there is little chance that the defense will bring up the submarine, mini submarine or whatever it is. Not even in the 80's with all the felled depth bombs defense managed to get up any foreign vessel or nation determine the invaders with one hundred percent certainty.

From the Swedish side, it's as much about showing that you are on the ball and that we have the capacity to respond to violations

Russia has by his conduct in the last year all by themselves qualified for the main suspect in the case, the case of a violation.

The Kremlin has ordered its border defenses to behave very aggressively towards the outside world. It has flown risky near Swedish signals intelligence plane in international waters and ostentatiously displayed its vapenbestyckning. Russian ships have almost rammed a research vessel. A series of threatening behavior has been observed both in the Baltic and elsewhere

What do the Russians want?
So it is very clear that Russia wants to show that it has increased its presence and that it is back as a dominant military power.

The question was a possible underwater violation fits into the picture

Would Russia in fact that Sweden will discover that our waters are violated? Since we already know with certainty that Russia violated our territory in the air and generally behaved threateningly, is there any reason why you would not do it even underwater

The general objective may be to intimidate the Baltic countries and in Sweden's case, a warning not to take any further steps towards NATO membership.?

But if one wanted to keep secret intrusion and uncovered by accident so is Russia's objective another. Then will the Russian military may collect information about Swedish submarine defense for use in possible future operations.

In some ways, a more worrying scenario.

Although NATO submarines in the Baltic Sea. In theory, it is quite possible that, for example, the United States violates Swedish waters in order to put the blame on Russia. However, it is less likely as Sweden now collaborating so closely with NATO. Something we did not in the 80s.

On the basis of what we so far know for sure, it is still no guarantee that everything is a fake. Perhaps no one violated Swedish water whatsoever. The fact that several people have seen anything suspicious which is then interpreted is entirely possible.

Now that the Swedish military operation is generally known, it is difficult to see why the military would continue to conceal concrete evidence if you have any.

The Navy may have their own purposes in interpreting witness testimony in a certain direction.

"May have overreacted"

For many years, the Navy's ability to hunt a foreign underwater vehicles refitted down like the other defense. Now that the defense will be strengthened again comes to stay ahead to get increased funding.

I do not claim that the defense found on the violation but they may consciously or unconsciously have overreacted.

Defence secrecy and lack of facts contributing unfortunately that it is possible to speculate in all possible directions "


Markus