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-   -   Can a judge save the universe? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=137024)

Blacklight 05-19-08 08:04 PM

Quote:

Considering that current theory holds the Big Bang occured in less time than that... I'm not sure I find this encouraging... :shifty:
The Big Bang had something that this collider doesn't have, near infinite ammount of energy. This collider can produce conditions very similar to The Big Bang, but the vast amount of energy of the Big Bang is still a hell of a lot more than this thing can do. Can it bend space and time on a particle sized level in detectable ammounts ? Yes. Can it create a black hole or special matter ? Yes. Will these things be long lived enough to affect anything ? No. They're simply too small scale and created with too little energy. These things will dissapear as soon as they come into existance.

Consider this. There are black holes and worm holes being created all around you by the billions right now as you read this due to the Uncertainty Principle and Quantum Mechanics. Why don't you see them or feel their effects ? They're tiny... atomc sized..and they pop into existance and collapse almost instantaniously. With the CERN collider, we'll actually be able to see this process (hopefully) in a controlled environment.

baggygreen 05-19-08 08:19 PM

I dunno... i'd like to think there was minimal risk of them wiping us all out... but noone can say that.

noone can say what will happen, and i think thats risky business... sure you can say 'we're looking to do this or that', but in this case they're trying to recreate the big bang.... am i the only one who thinks its insanity to try to recreate something that formed everything????:doh:

Blacklight 05-19-08 10:46 PM

Quote:

I dunno... i'd like to think there was minimal risk of them wiping us all out... but noone can say that.

noone can say what will happen, and i think thats risky business... sure you can say 'we're looking to do this or that', but in this case they're trying to recreate the big bang.... am i the only one who thinks its insanity to try to recreate something that formed everything????:doh:
They aren't trying to create the Big Bang. They're not going to have anywhere near the power to do that. What this entails is bringing a single particle up to near the speed of light and then hitting it with another particle going near the speed of light and then reccording the results. This is done with every particle accelerator. The collisions that will occur in CERN will approach the energies of NEARER to the conditions of the big bang than we've ever been able to test, not the actual Big Bang. It will simulate conditions shortly after the Big Bang.. but on a particle scale. It can and probably will cause warping of space time but at such a small scale and for such a short time, it will be measurable, but it won't affect anything. There have been experiments that have warped space/time before with no issue.

V.C. Sniper 05-19-08 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP
"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :p

All hail... The Free Man!!!

Blacklight 05-20-08 12:03 AM

From Wikipedia:
Quote:

Concerns have been raised that performing collisions at previously unexplored energies might unleash new and disastrous phenomena. These include the production of micro black holes, and strangelets, potentially resulting in a doomsday scenario. Such issues were raised in connection with the RHIC accelerator, both in the media[16][17] and in the scientific community;[18] however, after detailed studies, scientists reached such conclusions as "beyond reasonable doubt, heavy-ion experiments at RHIC will not endanger our planet"[19] and that there is "powerful empirical evidence against the possibility of dangerous strangelet production."[20]
One argument against such fears is that collisions at these energies (and higher) have been happening in nature for billions of years apparently without hazardous effects, as ultra-high-energy cosmic rays impact Earth's atmosphere and other bodies in the universe.[21] A concern against this cosmic-ray argument is that, if dangerous strangelets or micro black holes were created at LHC, a proportion would have less than the Earth's escape velocity (of 11.2 km/s), and therefore would be captured by the Earth's gravitational field, whereas those created by high-energy cosmic rays would leave the planet at high speed, due to the laws of conservation of momentum at relativistic speeds[citation needed].
CERN's review concludes, after detailed analysis, that "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from strangelets or black holes.[22][23] However, the concern about the verity of Hawking radiation was not addressed, and another study was commissioned by CERN in 2007 for publication on CERN's web-site by the end of 2007.[citation needed]
The risk of a doomsday scenario was indicated by Sir Martin Rees, with respect to the RHIC, as being at least a 1 in 50,000,000 chance,[24] and by Professor Frank Close, with regards to (dangerous) strangelets, that "the chance of this happening is like you winning the major prize on the lottery 3 weeks in succession; the problem is that people believe it is possible to win the lottery 3 weeks in succession."[25] Accurate assessments of these risks are impossible due to the present incomplete, or even hypothetically flawed, standard model of particle physics (see also a list of unsolved problems in physics).

Micro black holes
Main article: Micro black hole
Although the Standard Model of particle physics predicts that LHC energies are far too low to create black holes, some extensions of the Standard Model posit the existence of extra spatial dimensions, in which it would be possible to create micro black holes at the LHC[26][27][28] at a rate on the order of one per second. According to the standard calculations these are harmless because they would quickly decay by Hawking radiation. The concern is that among other disputed factors, Hawking radiation (whose existence is still debated[29]) is not yet an experimentally-tested or naturally observed phenomenon. The opponents to the LHC consider that micro black holes produced in a terrestrial laboratory might not decay as rapidly as calculated, or might even not be prone to decay. According to CERN, physicists in general do not question the assumption that black holes are generally unstable and those few who have pointed out issues with Hawking's radiation were only attempting to achieve a more rigorous proof of it.[30] CERN further argues that even if micro black holes were created and were stable, they would pose no threat to the Earth during its remaining 5 billion years of existence.[30][31] However, Dr. Adam D. Helfer's thesis concludes "no compelling theoretical case for or against radiation by black holes",[32][33] and Dr. Otto E. Rossler's thesis calculates that Earth accretion time could be as short as 50 months.[34]

Strangelets
Main article: Strangelet
Strangelets are a hypothetical form of strange matter that contains roughly equal numbers of up, down, and strange quarks and are more stable than ordinary nuclei. If strangelets can actually exist, and if they were produced at LHC, they could conceivably initiate a runaway fusion process (reminiscent of the fictional ice-nine) in which all the nuclei in the planet were converted to strange matter, similar to a strange star.

Legal challenge
On 21 March 2008 a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's startup was filed before the US District Court of Hawaii[35][36] by a group of seven concerned individuals. This group includes Walter L. Wagner who notably was unable to obtain an injunction against the much lower energy RHIC for similar concerns. See: RHIC - Fears among the public
The restraining order[37] is a demand for an injunction of 4 months time after issuance of the LHC Safety Assessment Group's (LSAG) Safety Review originally promised by January 1, 2008, to review the LHC's most recent safety documentation, after it has been issued, and a permanent injunction until the LHC can be demonstrated to be reasonably safe within industry standards.

Skybird 05-20-08 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacklight
The Big Bang had something that this collider doesn't have, near infinite ammount of energy.


"Near infinite?" What should that be? It either is infinite, or it is not. If it is not, it always is not even "near infinite"! ;) When you see the universe as a borderless and thus not-expanding thing, there probably was infinite energy created by the Big Bang (not before). If you descrobe the universe as expanding, it necessarily has borders that expand - and thus the 'Big Bang cannot have been creating infinite energy. Not even a bit of it. No, not even that.

Funny little theory, this Big Bang. Reminds me of the old warning not to fall off the edge of the world. Imagine a time travel to before the Big Bang happened! Ooops!

Is there any symbolism in that the Big Bang theory was designed in an era when mankind also started to build atomic bombs and illustrated that at least things could be brought to an end with a Big Bang? Like there also may be symbolism to be found in that most Western people get already born in hospitals? :D

Raptor1 05-20-08 05:14 AM

I don't think it's that easy to destroy the universe (or some smaller portion of it) with such a small contraption as the LHC

I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?

bradclark1 05-20-08 07:57 AM

I like dropping Mentos in diet coke and watch the reaction myself. A lot of black holes in that. Plus it's more on my level of science.

DeepIron 05-20-08 08:36 AM

Quote:

I like dropping Mentos in diet coke and watch the reaction myself.
Wow! Cold fusion, er, I mean fizzin'...

MothBalls 05-20-08 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1
I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?

It would get elected as Prime Minister or President.

goldorak 05-20-08 11:47 AM

Frankly as a European I say who the hell cares what the Americans think about CERN ?
They don't participate, have no legal jurisdiction so they can sue to their hearts content for all I care. The only practical result is thet they will be ridiculed even more for their "war on science". Man what a country that negates evolution and now wants to sue CERN for "the impossibily remote possibity of destroying earth". :rotfl:

kurtz 05-20-08 11:57 AM

The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first.

kiwi_2005 05-20-08 11:58 AM

Far-out. Its like something out of a SF movie. What next, a time machine:hmm:

Zayphod 05-20-08 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepIron
Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP
To be serious, I just haven't seen any convincingly scientific indications this could go THAT bad. I mean sure, anything can happen. But given what I think is a small risk of something going badly wrong, weighed against what could produce a massive breakthrough for human knowledge... I think it's more than worth it. This may be the sort of science that "threatens" earth and the solar system, but it's also the sort of science that gives us a chance to one day save our species by taking us beyond these. Honestly, there's a lot of other threats to survival of human civilization as it stands.

Well in principal I would agree...

However, the last major breakthrough in this kind of physics got dropped twice on Japan and we've lived in fear of it ever since...

If I remember my history correctly, when they were about to test the Atomic bomb for the very first time, several scientists were taking bets on whether or not the blast would begin to fuse the Nitrogen and Oxygen in the atmosphere (think wildfire in the air) that would destroy all the breathable air on the planet.

As I recall, no one bothered any judge to stop the experiement.
I believe the Earth survived the experiment (and subsequent blasts as well).

Zayphod 05-20-08 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacklight
From Wikipedia:
Quote:

--- snip ---
The restraining order[37] is a demand for an injunction of 4 months time after issuance of the LHC Safety Assessment Group's (LSAG) Safety Review originally promised by January 1, 2008, to review the LHC's most recent safety documentation, after it has been issued, and a permanent injunction until the LHC can be demonstrated to be reasonably safe within industry standards.

So, uh, how do they determine if it's "safe" without running it at full power? This is all done on theory until they actually turn the thing on to "full", right?


Quote:

Legal challenge
On 21 March 2008 a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's startup was filed before the US District Court of Hawaii[35][36] by a group of seven concerned individuals.
Correct me if I'm wrong, confused, or just plain stupid, but where is it written (in stone) that any judge in a US court in Hawaii has anything to say about, or has any control over, anything going on in Switzerland? I'm assuming this Federal judge will toss this out for lack of jurisdiction.

Raptor1 05-20-08 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MothBalls
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1
I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?

It would get elected as Prime Minister or President.

Well, Mr. Strengelet got my vote, Micro Black Hole is just too corrupt, sucking in all the power...

Zayphod, The collider is theoretically safe, but so are the claims that it could destroy the world, so it's even...

Skybird 05-20-08 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz
The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first.

Lovely. You are really cute.

kurtz 05-20-08 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird
Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz
The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first.

Lovely. You are really cute.

Aw Shucks!

GlobalExplorer 05-20-08 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz
The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet.

I also think that we can rely on statistics here. If such collisions occur naturally the fact that we are still there and not swallowd by a black hole is a good indication that nothing will go wrong.

Same as with the a-bomb, before the first nuclear tests some people thought that the chain reaction would not stop. A certain Adolf Hitler was one of them.

But think about this. Today at lunch a collegue of mine came up with an interesting theory: the reason that we can find no extraterrestrial civilizations is that they all go poof when they build their first particle accelerator of considerable size.

I find this really an interesting theory.

Tchocky 05-20-08 05:00 PM

Like Carl Sagan's answer to Fermi's paradox - All large civilisations destroy themselves before reaching the stars


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