SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - The human element...

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- - The human element... (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119998)

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Originally Posted by madjack

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

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The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.

But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

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I do not see how the human element would add to the game.

I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

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Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that

Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

Hardass I'm not. Creating a fantasy world with a 3D generated crew on a hard drive talking or repeating the same old dribble does not make sense to me. Sure, you hear the same old voices that pertain to the operation of the boat and what is happening. I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call. Also, adding crew depth I do not believe will attract more customers to the genre. Selling a complete, bug free game will do that. As I stated, the only depth I need to see is increasing more voices of things happening, ie depth charge in water, ship spotted....one warship, two merchants.... something to this effect. How is looking at a guy and hear him repeat at every sitting..."Do you want to play Cribbage?" crew interaction?

Quote:

Originally Posted by donut

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Right on target Sir....!

Exactly Donut! I need more chatter from sonar, WO and Weapons Officer. I'm not talking about the latest crap game interaction either. I need hardcore current information on the DD coming my way!!!!

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Originally Posted by madjack

Ah the internet.

Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response...

...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written.

Gotta love it:up:

First I was drunk last night and second it really dosent matter about punctuation.

Easy on the rum mates :lol: Nuth' wrong with expressing opinions. personaly I'd like a LITTLE more crew interaction. Anvart an someone else is working on clickable crew members. Maybe we will see something good come out of it, your option to use it or not:arrgh!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

And you do it well :up:

RDP

There is a very logical and rational idea to solve this entire issue. Turn your computer room into a submarine. Close the windows when you dive, shut the blinds, and dont shower. Have your wife/girlfriend only give you meals at certain times of the day and tell him/her to nag at you in a sailor's voice.

Really...this is a game...not reality. If you want to play the game at 1x time compression from port, talk to your seamen, interact with the devices, write in a diary....

....join the Navy.

I really don't understand the need for more 'immersion' in something that is not trying to be the parallel to reality in the 1940s pacific. The game is SPECIFICALLY about commanding a submarine with the intent of shooting torpedos and sinking ships. Everything else is a side BENEFIT......the fact that its based on a real war, the fact that the boats were real, the fact that we have crews to mess with, the fact theres damage.....those are all side benefits. You're talking about bringing reality into the whole equation which is just a foolish idea. Not only would it cost countless more manhours to produce the AI and diverse settings for crew immersion, but it would also just be a wasted effort. The SH4 community won't like the game more just because the developers make some radical new immersion system.

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.

Gents,

Let's all not forget that in r/l submariners were/are picked for their emotional stability and lack of "drama" in the first place.

While I agree that a bit of small talk would add to the overall atmosphere of the sim and help to bring the crew to life, so-to-speak, it's really not necessary IMHO.

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.

If you really want consequences, or a reason to pause before acting on those command decisions, then play with the TM v1.4 mod, and play "dead is dead" @ 100% realism. Really brings the game to life for me. Well, as much as possible anyway considering that I'm sitting in front of a PC in my 'puter room, all at about 2,000'MSL (local elevation where I live).

No disprespect intended to anyone, the above is merely my opinion.

Regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Yeah, good cop, bad cop thing;)

I also thought the human element was sorely missing from SH4. It seemed more sterile in tone than SH3, to me.

Anybody ever play PTO2 by KOEI. Every month you had a meeting with
5 other major AI player to form the next months policy. I really enjoyed
that feature but have never seen it in any other wargame. Maybe someday
we will see a feature like that expanded upon. When gripes me about most of these tactical games is the "fragmentation". Nothing is connected to the BIG
picture. Thats why I still play "War in the Pacific" was everything is linked
to the entire Pacific Theatre...

JIM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyhawk

Good opinion! I always believed the SH series required a great imagination. You are dead on with the imagination...this game requires it. It takes imagination by the wonderful modders to come up with the things they do. It takes your imagination to really enjoy this type of simulation and keep your interest. What is nice about this game and using your imagination, nothing is really scripted for you to any extent. I often find the maze like games with things to find to move on to the next level darn boring, yet this game....the entire ocean is yours to play in with your imagination. Would a humanized crew be nice? Sure. Is it necessary, not really in my opinion. What is necessary is a crew who is on the ball when the rubber meets the road. Right now we have about half of that with the silent crew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyhawk

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.

Good point:up:

RDP

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Originally Posted by cali03boss

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Glad I'm single then :yep:

Had one like that once she had the naggin part well under control but the communication it self was a bit weird.... me going "dive, dive, dive" and she'd reply "did you do the dishes".. or "man the deck gun" and getting "don't forget to take out the garbage" as a response.

Suffices to say it didn't quite work out, so one time I did take the garbage out. :smug:

I think the idea of making the game a little more human, is a good one.

There was a World War I flight sim I used to play on the Amiga called 'Wings' that did it quite well. It focused around the pilot character, he used to write letters back to his family with stories of the missions that he had done (you had done) and the characters around you in the game. If one of your fellow pilots was killed he wrote about it. It made the game really personal, and you became attached to the squadron.

The Wing commander series did the human thing quite well too. Maybe they will add something for SHV, who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali03boss

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.

Let me see if I have this correct. It is ok for a poster to call another a smartass but when it comes to a moderator different rules apply?Takeda Shingen:[/quote]Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?
[/quote]

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali03boss

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.

Let me see if I have this correct. It is ok for a poster to call another a smartass but when it comes to a moderator different rules apply?Takeda Shingen:

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?
[/quote]

__________________[/quote]

I do not understand what you are trying to say here. All community members are asked to refrain from name calling. Perhaps we do not catch all of the offending posts but normally we are directed to them by a member who is the focus of the post. It is dealt with at that point through PM. Last I checked, this was a thread on humanizing SH4, not hunting around for moderator issues. If you have something constructive to add to this thread, please do so. If you have an issue with the moderators please exercise your right to PM any of them (including myself) for further explanation. If need be we can take it right to the top. Your call.....

I have to reply to this because I totally agree with the OP. It is really missing that personal touch.

For example, BIA (yeah I know, but stay with me) really made you feel for your team. For a start if anyone died they were as human-computer like as your own toon and usually made the fighting that tad bit harder.

I dont want an RPG, but give us some reactions, chatter, laughter...perhaps if someone dies lets have a funeral at sea :smug:

In all honesty, the graphics are awesome, why couldn't they put in better crew reactions while they were at it (and where is my bloody WO:stare:)?

I'm gonna guess that it might be because they only had 11 months to put the entire sim together so they had to prioritize.

JCC

Quote:

Originally Posted by alunatic

First I was drunk last night and second it really dosent matter about punctuation.

If you want your posts to be taken seriously, then yes, punctuation is important. Posts written like yours I just skip over, because they're usually irrelevant to the conversation, anyways.