That works too. However I doubt that Ubisoft will release the SDK if there's any potential at all for another Silent Hunter game.

As far as SH4 was handled, I do not see potential for this series to go on. If they are simply refusing to fix this game or just ignoring it, the possibilities for more in the series looks very remote. A refund is fine but I would much rather have the game fixed. Probably cost a whole lot less also!

You guys far far FAR overestimate your (or should I say our since I am member of this "club" too) importance.

This game got solid reviews and for all I can say sold as much as SH3. Mr Yves Guillemot is probably too busy to ever read any of your mails, and if he does so, he'll see a spreadsheet with sales results of 100s of UbiSoft games (majority of which are for consoles anyway) conclude that SH4 is one smallllllllllliiiisssshhhhhhh micro-number on that list. Then he'll throw your mail(s) into recycle bin. (That's what I would do anyway.)

Perhaps he'll decide to spend next 5 minutes Googling the net to see SH4 reviews, and he'll actually find very nice reviews, averaging above 80%! Next, he'll conculde - rightfully IMO - that he's dealing with a bunch of wackos, who for some reason don't like 80+% game and again, throw the mail(s) into Recycle bin.

Get real people.

Besides, I like the game and think it's better than SH3 in all aspects :D

undoubtedly you're correct, but let's just say that for my piece of "wacko" consumer mind at least i'd like to know that i did everything that it's in my "overestimate[d]" power to do to get this thing to where it ought to have been upon initial release.


i agree, but that doesn't preclude the fact that it has several key flaws which arguably constitute it as being "broken"...

but who's to say that M. Guillemot doesn't take an interest in the products his comapny sells? i realize of course what a long-shot it is (especially being somewhat familiar with 'typical' French business mentality), but better to have made an effort and failed than never to have tried at all!
:88)

As long as I get the game fixed or my refund I'll be happy. I really don't care if Yves Guillemot or you think I'm a wacko. Personally I reckon that anyone defending Ubisoft's decision to stop patching SH4 is a wacko, but that's just me.

I don't understand this attitude. So you're saying doing nothing is better than doing something. If that something turns out to be futile then so be it, but at least we tried to stand up for ourselves.

Your apathy and defeatist attitude is part of the problem. As long as people such as yourself believe there's nothing we can do about it nothing will be done about it and we'll continue to be fed these lackluster games. If you want to be a doormat, fine, but get out of the way of people that don't.

There is no sense in developers making simlulations for communities that are just going to demand refunds if they can't have everything they want.

I for one do NOT want a refund, because implicit in the "refund" approach is returning the product that is being refunded, and I do not care to part with my SH4, whatever it's state.

I will encourage continued support by promising future purchases if I am satisfied, not be reversing the purchase process through refund.

:D You're not alone.


signed in advance, if this turns into a petition.

I am not defending their decision to stop patching anything (BTW you speak of this "decision" as if it's the historic fact :hmm: ).

I am merely observing that harassing highly positioned Ubisoft executives with emails and threatening with lawsuits will only make them laugh (if EVEN THAT is not overestimating the reaction these mails will produce).

Face it. SH4 got very very solid reviews (by me, as well - 87%). Why would people like Yves get concerned? Because handful of rivet counters think the radar in the game does not work 100% correct? Come on. Why should he care, in fact why should anyone outside "our" micro-small club care?

Hell most players don't care about patches and play the game on 0% realism. Someone, I think AVGWarhawk made a good anecdotal post about that.

"We" who care about the game make like 0,0001% of Ubisoft customers, we are not in a position to threat, hell we're not even in a position to beg. That's how small we are. The one thing we CAN do is stop making laughable posts on this board.

I realise that denial is part of the process of accepting that we've been screwed, but this is ridiculous.

As for us not being in a position to threaten, we buy the games. Plus we have certain heavy-duty rights as consumers. If we don't have the ultimate power who does?

Wow!..how come they have taken a decision like that? money, time?
Not normal for a game of this caliber, to stop patching after 2 month of a release...is it. OK its not HALO bleeding 5 or something but SH is still a big franchise as a SIM compared to other SIM's.....or is it a marketing trick...I wonder...

Well if it comes to the worst we have to demand a SDK!

As I understand it from what I've read elsewhere the decision is being made based on the budget.

Hmmm... I thought this was a no brainer and everyone would understand where I was coming from. It was not my intent to create division in the ranks... for that I apologize.

I do tend to be a bit verbose at times, causing people to skim through the post and miss any valid points I might make... and that may be at the root of some of the arguments in this thread. Again, I apologize. But let me try to make good by making it simple.

I am not advocating a law suit. In fact I was a bit derisive in the way I presented that option.

I do not want a refund either. However, nothing is more effective in getting your point of view across than reaching into someone's pocket. More effective than witholding money (ie, refusing to purchase in the first place), more effective than the threat of future boycott, more effective than demanding justice in a forum such as this... and certainly more effective than doing nothing.

As to doing nothing until UBI makes their final decision on whether to do another patch?... IMHO, that's too late. See my comment above RE not wanting a refund. I want a fix. Failing to apply whatever leverage we may be able to generate while there's still time to affect the patch decision will not serve my purpose, at least.

Whether or not Mssr. Guillemot takes our complaints seriously is beside the point. I expect that he will not. What he may take seriously however is a request for a response to our complaints coming from the California State Attorney General. In fact I'm counting more on that than I am on convincing him with my initial complaint letter to see reason.

Regarding the actual vs the perceived state (vis-a-vis 80% reviews) of the product from an outsider's point of view...? Reviews (read, one man's opinion) mean virtually nothing... particularly when the company who made the product is advertising in that publication. The state of the product can best be determined by comparing promised or advertised features and functionality (eg, magazine and web site advertising and the game manual are two good sources) to actual features and functionality.

And if anyone is interested... the legal principle in play here (again, speaking only for the US) is called "implied warranty". Specifically, "merchantability" and "fitness for a particular purpose". Having had this conversation before with the CT state AG's office, I believe I am correct in stating that the former applies here. The question an AG will be interested in is whether or not the product released was actually ready and suitable for commercial sale.

And before anyone says it <g>... UBI can "disclaim" all they want, but many states in the US (including California and Connecticut) do not allow manufacturers to disclaim implied warranties... at least not in the way UBI attempts to do it in their EULA

To summarize: this is not about law suits or temper tantrums or playing at Don Quixote... this is about making use of a viable mechanism provided for the express purpose of protecting consumers from purveyors of defective product.


JD

This is an excellent initiative! I have just been through the same circus with Medieval II Total War and I regret that I didn't do something more proactive like this. As to the refund then I would suggest donating it to either charity or the open source sub sim project I read about somewhere ... even better, let's collect the refunds and use it to send the UBI staff on a free course in software quality assurance ... and history 101 if we have the funds :)

Well, all I can say is that I hope you're right in that. Fact is that the simulation market - or the simulation offerings - has taken a big hit and has become a niche market amongst all those FPS, console games, Online RPGs and moronic "Sims" computer games. In a way, I agree very much that you should not allow mediocre products being put on the market just because you are afraid to not get anything else. On the other hand, it might just be like that. I don't know. I just know that Microprose, SSI, Ocean, DiD, Digital Integration, Jane's, etc. are all gone already. There's not much left. All hail to anyone taking up the torch to run with it, but I don't see any indication for this happening anytime soon.

They've been proclaiming the imminent death of the sim market for ten years, but somehow sims keep getting made.

That is they way I read your original post. I made my email and sent it off.:up:

But not in the numbers, or the complexity, that they used to be. Look at the combat jet scene. The last jet sims (my other hobby) that I can think of with complex avionics was Falcon 4.0 and Jane's FA-18, and they are about 10 years old now. The very few jet sims have come out in the last 10 years have had arcade avionics (though LOMAC did have excellent flight models). As a result, I still fly 4.0 (Free Falcon build) and occasionally Jane's F-15 and FA-18. The graphics are dated, buit there is still nothing comparable on the market in the last 10 years.

When it comes to sub sims, all there is Sonalysts (who do this as a side diversion from real life work), and the SH franchise, which we are kicking in the teeth.

So no, combat sims aren't dead, but they are (IMO) a faint shadow of what they used to be in terms of numbers and detail.

Okay, but that's hardly because the market for them really changed. What happened was that the industry changed - FPS games became the types of games that were best able to push the edge of the envelope in terms of graphics. It had nothing to do with the sim genre dying - it was just that manufacturers found engines that did FPS well and players wanted the most appealing graphics. Flight sims weren't where it was at anymore. Once flight sims get graphics that are as advanced as the FPS games, and once the current batch of mediocre flight sim developers are gone, the genre will be picked up by companies that can do what Dynamix and the Falcon crew did and the genre will rise again.

Right I belong to the camp that wants another patch ... 100% but tell me how do you know this for a fact? Has there been an open, clear announcement that there won't be another patch?:down: If so point me to it please.