Nope, I don't belive there would have been. Given the alternative u-boat success.

Something else wrong (IMO), the idea the British would surrender their fleet. Scuttled maybe.

And what of the Med?

I think the whole point of evacuating the population from an island that size is highly improbable. Especially if Germany really had completely blockaded England which is the premise of the scenario. There would have been no way to escape. A few liners like the Queens might have been fast enough to get past the Typ XXI uboat screen around Britain with several ten thousand people, but to evacuate even 10% of the civilian population en masse with a few fast lines would take years.
England in the 1940s was not self-sufficient when it comes to food. So if surrounded and starved for food supplies for the population, England would have only had the option of surrender or of it's population dying of hunger. It's like a siege on a fortress on a large scale. Being an island is the greatest defense and the greatest weakness of England.

I am definitely interested!!!!!! :up: Is it ready for download? hehe :arrgh!:

It would be a relief to get out of that gloomy atmosphere of defeat

That´s exactly what i think. Go for it!

Listen, I have an idea. Does anyone in here remember Panzer General? Here it's possible to win WWII from German side. How about making the campaign according to the progress in Panzer general seen from a u boat's side? Damn my English is not so good....does anyone understand what I mean?

your english is perfect friend... i have never played panzer general but i know what you mean.

I understand what you mean :yep: ....your to be complemented on your English too :up: ....I'm just not that sure how your idea could/would be implemented in the game :hmm:

@Jimbuna/goldenrivet:

First of all sorry for the late reply and thanks for understanding :) . Well, I have the good old panzer general I, which I personally think is the most realistic of them all, later it all went too much arcade style. Anyway, it's really interesting to look at the outcome of the war in this game because there are several of them, depending on how well you do. When SSI made the game way back they made it upon a theory of 3 key years in WWII where Germany had the chance to win or turn the tide and those years were well the beginning of course, if everything had went well from 1939 then the war should have ended in 1944 with UK invaded in 1940 and Soviet Union beaten and US not involved at all! OR 1941, if everything goes as in history then another chance of turning the tide for the Germans will be in 1941 and the key factors will be Africa and Russia, then as the last chance, 1943, key battles being Kharkov and Sicilly, operation Husky. Now if one starts a campaign from the beginning in 1939 and plays to the end then the outcome will be different every time, depending on skills and luck and so on. Now...Imagine if somebody played a full campaign, this can be done in a few weeks, writes down the "history" and THEN, somebody in here with a sound knowledge of how this land war would affect the u-boat war, then voila! Do you get the picture? :D

Maybe Gibraltar would have been invaded as a preparation for opr. sealion in 1940 to free the Italian fleet, then the Gibraltar crossing would be a walk in the park, maybe the snorkel would never had been needed at all and Germany would have had a sub war like the US in the pacific. Maybe 1943 would have been a challenge only and not a turning point leading to defeat of the uboat arm, if a German victory on the western front and thereby more ressources for technology....am I talking daft? What do you think?

I just mean that, a lot of research went into making panzer general I and plausible outcomes of WWII if Germany had won, if a game can decide the "script" for the campaign you are planning in here, why then waste months of discussing possible outcomes....It would be just like a historic calculator in a way :)

nah - wouldn't happen that way... Germany could never have won the war, even if Hitler never made a single mistake in his battle plans - the moment he opened the second front the war was lost (and if he hadn't Stalin was going to attack sooner rather than later anyhow). Now let's take the absolute ideal starting position and say that Japan actually stuck to the plan and attacked Russia from the East instead of going after America, the Axis still would have lost the war in Europe simply because of the Allied efforts there and the overwhelming resources they could bring into play.

America and England were working together in naval R&D, and the Brits had a choke hold on the Kriegsflotte so there was no realistic chance of the U-boots ever making it big as needed for a scenario like this to work...

you are 100% absolutely correct and i agree with you Germany was Screwed from day one.

but in the (so far non-existant) super fantasy, make believe world of the alternate reality mod (which a person would have the option of using) the Krauts pull a win out of dark moist places you shouldnt talk about at dinner. :rotfl:

Some of the veteran Aces around here could probably attest to some healthy tonnage. That by itself is an unreality compared to what the IRL far and few U-boat aces realy managed out of the war.
But, it's still fun! And that my friends is the point of this game imo.
On the other hand even a 'Fantasy Mod' needs a few anchors to make it half way conceivable.

I am all for a fantasy mod - there were plenty of boots in the pipeline that would be a delight to play with - but as danurve says, there need to be anchors in reality -- and you don't want to glorify the wrong things either...

Conceivable would be that Germany stopped after the invasion of France and Poland and directed its energies towards Africa - colonisation, resource hunting, etc - all that needs to be transported via sea (hence U-boots). Maybe there should be an option for the Allied merchant to surrender and change flag rather than just sinking them? Or piracy... :)

And please don't refer to my fellow country men as Krauts - that is not nice...

PLEASE O PRETTY PLEASE...some one PLEASE make this mod, it would be soooooooooo awesome. Someone should create the ships listed in the "Z-Plan" hahaha That be SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET:rock::rock::rock::rock:

Would you prefer Jerry or Fritz? :rotfl:

However....i want this mod. There are so many books about that "what happened if Hitler won the war". So why not playing this fantasy in a game? At least it´s a fantasy...

speaking of what if scenarios

i saw this neat movie a long time ago i think it was called the "philadelphia experiment 2"

basically the USAF re-opens the philly experiment in hopes of rendering their stealth fighters invisible. (invisible man style)

so they equip an F-117 accordingly, send it up on a flight test and when they activate the device the F-117 vanishes without a trace.

Contact with the F-117 is lost.

Running low on fuel, and unable to determine his position (non of the navigational equipment like GPS or Tacan seems to be working) the pilot finds an airfield and makes a precautionary landing. Greeting him at the end of his landing roll - Luftwaffe personnel carrying submachine guns - the F-117 was transported to ww2 Germany.

anyhow - the Germans reverse engineer many of the F-117s systems and the GBU-17 bomb. UH OH! (peter griffin style uh oh like when he crapped his pants) :rotfl:

now these scientists are in a scramble to correct history and prevent the philidelphia experiment or something like that.

one of the coolest scenes in the movie was the airfield with like a dozen F-117s parked on the ramp with big Swastikas on the tail getting ready to launch a mission into london.

Kraut is actually a nasty nick (sorry, my English fails me here and I can't think of the proper word here) -Jerry or Fritz aren't (they were more affectionate)...

I guess people don't realise what it is like to be held responsible or being constantly reminded of a past that has nothing to with them - especially when you show an interest in history, particularly the 30's & 40's (for some people that makes you automatically a Neo). You try living with the 'enemy' for a while - then you might understand the sensitive issue surrounding just one word - there are plenty of uneducated people about (particularly the second and third generation after the war) that really only know one thing about the War and use that in a misguided way - so yes, you get sensitive (fed up, bored) after a while


a bit like 'The final Count-down' then, huh? Now if Hitler had used the Messerschmidt ME 262 right from day one (rather than let the plans get dusty in some cubboard for a few years) that would have been something...

There are a number of books and films out there with that theme of alternative history going - but very few are anywhere near conceivable... ;)

As a "fellow country men" i really know what you mean.
But back to the topic. Lesson "political correctness" is over. :D Take it with a smile.

Jep I sometimes can't stand that either. However since the German government doesn't have the courage to put an end to that and always submits to a past most living adults weren't even alive in, I can understand why those who still hold a grudge against Germany feel their feelings confirmed. Keeping the past alive by remembering it is one thing but presenting oneself as a self concious country whenever a topic get's a little dicey and might be connected to a racist past is not the right way either.


Well I have always been a big fan of the Me262 and have stood in front of the one in the Deutsches Museum for long hours, but I believe it is sometimes overrated. It proved to be a nasty customer to fly. Its engines were extremely sensitive and unreliable and it could only take off from concrete or asphalt runways which were easy to destroy and hard to rebuild. In addition it was a poor dogfighter. It's main advantage was top speed and climb rate, even though there were some prop fighters that could climb as fast. I guess a combination of Me 262 attacking bombers and Fw 190 going after the escorting fighters could have made a dent in the Allied air superiority. Nevertheless the German Army lost several important oil reserves as early as 1943 which made it difficult to mass produce high grade aircraft fuel. By late 1944 there wasn't enough oil left to maintain the Luftwaffe and more aircraft were bombed on the ground than lost in combat.
An earlier switch to produce the Typ XXI in combination with a successful elimination of the Royal Air Force in 1940 might have made a real difference but I believe in the end would also just have prolonged the war. In addition since basically no Typ XXI boats saw front action noone knows if it would have lived up to the expectations. The Allies who captured and tested several of the boats were impressed though. In the end the only thing that would have won the war for Germany would have been the A-bomb. Luckily THAT didn't happen. Especially our (now) friends on the big island to the North West certainly wouldn't have been amused. ;-)

nice goldenrivet
id really like to see a mod like that out here:up:

Please don't forget that the ME262 was rushed through - you have to look at the real design plans, not what has been built out of scrap (and even for that it was still extremely impressive). Old Göhring ruined his standing and respectability with Hitler at Dunkirk = he shouldn't have said that the Luftwaffe is more than capable to finish off the British at the beaches. Letting almost the whole surviving bulk of the British Expedition Force escape and so giving the Brits a fighting chance is not a confidence builder. Later on the screw-up with the Battle of Britain burried any chance of the Luftwaffe ever going to be developed as the Kriegsmarine or the Panzers were... As I said, the plans for that aircraft were locked in a cabinet for a few years (whilst Germany had still command over vast resources).

The Type XXI did go out on patrol and the two boats both sucessfully engaged in a mock attack on a British strike force and a heavily guarded convoy before surrendering - neither of the British unit ever saw it comming (according to debriefing manuskript). Other types in development would have been even better, had the war not been lost (and I do believe Hitler knew it that it was over in '43). I am sure I read somewhere about the Japanese developing one of the German planned Super-boots, but I can't find that book for the live of me... :damn: Rumour had it that it fell into American hands and they kept stumm about it, developing their first SSK-class (if I remember rightly) submarines based on that very concept. Now with a boat like that and some planes to back it up with, maybe a nice little carrier fleet to go with it the war of the Atlantic would have changed just a little...

Still - the two front war broke Germany's back, and that is a given in any kind of scenario...