If only real arguments could go like that.... "wait a minute, I'm going to take a break and figure out how I want to verbally debate you "

One can only dream.

So you disclaimed these wiews and you detest the current Russian politics? Kinda made pointles to argue about that, nice still to have confirmation on my own wiews of what the general feelings in Russia are. So in that we agree :D But i wouldnt blame the current situation on the West, the real will to have a democratic properous Russia was there. Everybody knew what the price of failure would be, and it is realising itself through present developments. Why would have West wanted to keep Russia economically ruined? One would think the opposite would be best for profit :hmm: And the desire for freedom cannot be imported as the US is finding out in Iraq. But if countries come knocking for it, its impossible to shut the door in their faces. So il stand by Dick on this one :lol:

Well, I think the real problem is that people just can't get along.

I think Cheney raises some valid points, but doesn't address others. The problem is that this view escalates this possible "New Cold War", and I'm concerned what the cost of it will be. Russia already lost one cold war, and they found out the hard way what the consequences of this are. It's a vicious circle, but just as the escalation of the hard-line Cold War position by the Americans in the 50's may have prolonged the existence of the Soviet regime (and I mean the political buildup against it rather than the military one), I'm concerned that it will greatly prolong the existence of whatever is coming next for Russia. The more you isolate Russia, the greater the chance of it being a problem for a long time. And you have to acknowledge that there is no possible alternative to isolating it, if you want to be hostile to it. And cornering any Russian regime is a bad choice, as history shows.

My personal suggestion would be that Cheney's position is what will lead to the "New Cold War". Defusing the situation quickly is impossible, since the road to a better Russia lies through economic strengthening rather than weakening for the country, and its integration into the Western markets as an equal partner. This will let Russia to develop [among other things, a middle class] and possible for it to operate as a more or less democratic state.

Meanwhile, I think other countries will need to accept dealing with Russia on equal terms and respecting some political interests - and I don't mean they all have to turn to Lukashenkos. It makes about as much sense for them not to as it does for Mexico and Canada to reject amicable relations and respect for US interests.

Those who seek to isolate Russia will get exactly that. And it's exactly what will cause real problems and distance Russia from democracy. Which will be history repeating itself over and over again.

I agree with you CCIP in that the boat sailed right on by America and her allies in that they should have gotten more involved with the newborn countries over there. It is classical have and have nots, and wanting to be the richest, and liking to see the other guy fall. To bad we are all humans full of greed, lust, envy, strife, murder, and just plain rotten in nature...

I'm rambling....I had a point....lol....

The "individual" person is what I look at....you guys should watch the movie "Crash"... watched it the other nite and maybe made my point kinda. :)
funny how the comment of a man beaten by police has become "Immortal"...

Can't we all just get along....

:yep:

To neatly sum things up:

Russia's failure of democracy mostly has economic causes - both in the sense of an economic crisis killing off potential democratic politicians, and in the sense that Russia lacks a real middle class that is absolutely neccesary to make a democracy work. And now the econcomy has been salvaged in a way that is inherently unfriendly to democracy - it's fair to say that a liberal change now would likely cause another economic collapse, and the Russians wouldn't fall for it twice.

Similarly, I think the "Imperial ambitions" are more economic in character than anything else.

Any sort of attempt to isolate it again will lead to it turning its attention elsewhere - India, China come to mind as possible partners, especially in the energy market. I think that would be a real loss for the West in the end, and for Russia's democracy likewise.

Russia is doing better now than it ever was under yeltsin, yeltsin took russia direct to full democracy and the people couldnt take it nor the economy it did worse for the country not better, putin uses a step system which has worked alot better hence why he is still in power and russia hasnt crumbled.

America should but out at this point, trying to tell russia what they should do when they have done it and seen it fail isnt a good idea.

*ahem*

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/772...er93a016rh.jpg

I'll say :hmm:

:nope:

Nice essays by you, CCIP! Well said. Agree. Some people talking about "family of democrcies" already fell victim to the same mindset that made them wanting to democratize the ME region by force, too. Russia is acting by solid and clear strategical and economical interests. The same kind of interests and acting that led the US into Iraq. This does not make Russia harmless, but maybe the US is not the best-suited to criticise them for something that it exessively practice itselves. I did not like the recent Russian threads towards the EU, too (that it wants the EU to accept Yukos' increasing it's market shares in europe, else it does business with other partners). All energy-producers in europe currently try to get access to the field of direct first-hand-disrtibution as well, why not Yukos. The function by the same economical logic and compete by the same rules like all others. I did not like their threatening tone, but I completely can understand the motives. A Russia doing weired things without the West being able to recognize the motives for that - now, that would really by a reason to be concerned.

And mind you, that previously the gas for the Ukraine has been sold for FAR BELOW MARKET PRICES. Which means nothing else than massive financial losses for Russia. In the west every company that tries no normalize it's prize level and adopt it to market standard would be regarded as doing the most normal thing. But when it is a regional power that has the potential to resists demands for global and unchallenged monopoles on power, then, of course, the scale we compare our economical acting to, all of a sudden is no longer valid!?

Intimidation is part of the political agenda in international diplomacy. They do it, we do it, and you do it, too. They also do not have any obligation to interprete "deomcoracy" the way it is done in the West and the US. They are no American colony. I personally think that such a country, of that size, in that shape, with so many regional centers of power, even cannot be run like the western dream-democracy. I do not fully trust Putin, but I also cannot name anything he has done that would characterize him to have ambiiton to become the next European tyrant. He acts for the best interests of his country, as he sees it. And when remembering what massive power factions (military, intel communtiy, old communists, regional opponents) he has to deal with and keep in check without bein overthrown himself, he really does not do a too bad job.

Another cold war with Russia, humbug I say what rot. I tell you this the next cold war will be with China. :smug: :yep:

Skybird, you cant compare Iraq to countries that have their own will to become democratic. Not to support this and leave them under some dictatorships "sphere of influence" is extreme cowardice. Should the people in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech rebublic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria been left in the Russian sphere of interest? Millions of people denied freedom? You truly believe EU should go and instead we should have everyone for itself and his interests? How long would it take before whole of Europe was in flames, again? Imperial nostalgy describes well the Russian wiew of the world, its living in the past while rest of Europe is looking ahead.

And if someone says freedom doesnt feed your stomach, as a defence for dictatorship. I can tell you a story about a small dirtpoor nation, full of free men, far away in the north that would have rather died as one than lost its freedom. But it could be a cultural thing, they have never had serfs, too stubborn to master.

Middle and South America. Africa. South-East-Asia. For decades, and still today, European nations and America have acted there like you describe with regard to Russia. where is your protest concerning them?

Cowardice? No: realism.

I did not comment at all on what the EU should do (IF it can do something, and that is very big an "if"). Sphere of interest does not automatzically mean supression, or conquest. Europe for example is an American sphere of interest. We are heavily influence by the US, yes, and not always for the good and our advanatges, but theirs. And such an arrangement it is that iot comes down to with regard to the Russian motives. They MUST seek a stronger position, being confronted with ongoing Chinese immigration into their fareastern territories, and an increasing challenge by Islam'S strengthening in it's southern provinces. Demographically they are fighting a battle of delayed retreat, like Europe. They are just more realistic in their evaluation on how to increase their chances to survive these challenges. Europe has decided for the way of weakness and containment towards Islam. Russia is seeking more stremngth, economically, militarily, financially, geographically. There is a term in German, referring to chess, I found no translation for it, it seesm to be unknown in English, but it is "lavieren". It means that in a position where direct open action currently is not possible, silent moves are made only, that are designed not to give up strategical potentials that already have been gained, and maybe even gain additional small potentials without making a mistake that the enemy can exploit. And that's what they do. One must respect Russia, do to it's size and potential power, but currently I see no need to be afraid of it. I will fear a Russia who's actions and motives I no longer can explain and understand.

And again, they must not copy American understanding of democracy, neither are they obligated to do so, nor would they be well-advised, corrupt and mafia-oijnfested as their economical structures are. Open it to wstern understanding of freedom would mean to open doors and windows for organiozed crime even further, encourage local unrest and ambitions for local independence, and destabilize the whole ocujntry. And this is a Russia that I definetly do not want. You cannot run that country in the same way like you run little small Germany, or Italy, or France. OMG, did I say Italy here...? :lol: Definetely not recommended to follow the italian example... :-j

i also doubt that the absolutely overwheliming majority of people in Russia would want it that way. Putin is extremely popular especially with the young. He pumpos money into the military, which pleases them, hes has reassighned ressources into the intel community, buying their loayalt as well, it seems. And I can't see a vast majority in russia'S middleclass being strictly against him. Nor do I see that in the group pof the old, although the changes of the last 15 years are mainly to their cost. Russians seem to like being led and ruled. Stalin is cult today, can you imagine? He is accepted to be used in contemporary arts and culture, they even have theatre plays about him, and they are in favour of his reputation.

Don't think of Russia as Western Europe, it is a different world, and a different mentality, I think. We have similiarities and a shared history with them, but Russia also means: far east, Kamchatka, Japanese sea. Is that any european at all?

I think the Russians know best how to run their country. If Putin rules with somewhat a hard grab on things, then maybe because he has realized that nothing else would work to the positive of russia...!?!? Aren't we allowing the same example with regard to countries like Egypt for example? And when America pressed for more "democracy" there - imemdiately an ultra-islamic oppositon won one fifth of parliamentary seats, making it much tougher for mubarak now to prevent Egypt from falling even deeper into the arms of Islamism. We did neither him nor us a favour with that demand. With reghard to the huge diversity in russias southern border provinces, we should be careful with our wishes for Russia's ways to deal with these things: demographic time bombs, and Islam.

I can understand your concerns, due to the historical events with Russia and Finland in the past. But it is no Stalin ruling in the Kremlin now. but a very cool-thinking strategist.

Maybe I could make him to play chess with me here on the board!? :lol: could be interesting to see how he handles it. I would expect a tough and well-camouflaged opponent.

Sometimes I miss the cold war. Serious. It was a far more secure and predictable world.

Ha, cold war is beginning. It never ended.

Anyway, Cheyney is a monster who pushed the war in Iraq so that Haliburton could make all the money, Hell would be chilly for that disgusting human being.

Putin ansered that sob in his speech very well. I'm glad Russia called things their own names, identified USA as agressor in the world and showed that they will not be intemidated.

Americans, Americans this, what about American people, what the f8ck about people in Iraq, Iran, Korea, and any other place the man in oval office subscirbed to death?

America is on a collision course with history. Unlike before 1991, there is no more ideology to fight against. People in Russia couldn't give a **** about 'AMERICAN democracy' because they tried it and saw it, it only aims at robbing russia, making it powerless and teethless.


Saakashvili will have a fate of Mussolini if he continues like he is. In Ukraine, Yushenko will soon run away with is wife back to US, because one more game with gas and people might give him another 'Maidan'.

I pity the US and its leadership. I pity its people who will have to pay for those double standards. Skybird, CCIP said some reasoned and good things, I'm speaking purely from the heart and how many russians feel about the US. I'm sick of their double standards, their murderous government, and them taking away MY freedom with their white gloves. I wish Putin all the luck to push his reform through, to modernise his country and demographic sitution, to strenghten the economy and to slap those hostile nations around them economically. Problem with Russia for US is it's very big and self sufficient in pretty much anything. Isolating it is difficult and with China and India being very strong partners already, American should think twice before starting to piss against the wind. They want Cold war all over again? They never stopped fighting it even though Russia had completely changed its direction since 1991. It doesnt want world domination, it doesnt want to spread ANY form of ideology around them (apparently they have this stupid notion that cultures are diffferent and should chose thier own way of democracy), and it DOESNT threaten other countries with military force. US does everything on that list. Why should I be afraid of Russia? I'm only suspicious of US, the new Roman Empire. US is the country with a real complex of superpower as they need to beat up countries like Iran and Kosovo to show they are so powerful. Too bad that Iran is not a pushover. I hope China and Russia stick behind it and doesnt let more US boots close to its borders.

Bush - to Hague!
:lurk: