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I get the concept and Wahoo certainly did it to a degree. I am in fact reading "Wahoo" again for probably the 10th time. One thing our game lacks is historical realism that would make submerged static hunting viable since we play against AI.
Near Japan Morton did more submerged static hunting, but would place himself in shipping lanes and choke points. When he sunk ships, he usually quickly moved to another location 50-100nm's away and attacked again hoping the enemy would think two subs were in the area and split their ASW effort. Near Japan if you were spotted it usually prompted a ASW response, so one stayed dived more during the day. Many of the island chains also had land radar which would pick you up. The other factor missing in game is ocean currents. I added a lot of China coast traffic in 44 and 45 that basically hugs the coast and travels between the small islands and reefs, in and out of ports, not to mention many patrol boats, fishermen, minefields, shoreguns, coastal lights, air patrols, etc.. In such shallow water it's a dangerous game. I go in at night and attack and slip back to the deeper edge during the day and static hunt where I can still pick them up on sonar. It's fun playing, but hard and mistakes or risk can easily get you killed. |
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It might work better than it should. In SH4 your view doesn't improve when your higher. Did you ever play SHCE? You could actually see farther when you raised the scope higher (or surfaced). Quote:
True. Another thing is the sea state. I remember O'Kane describing how in rough seas, there was "green water coming over the bow", causing them to waste fuel. I think this is a big part of the reason fuel is less of an issue in this game. Something else that was modeled much better in SHCE. Quote:
I agree. I've come to the conclusion that operating in shallow/coastal areas is fundametally different than deep water ops. O'Kane used the term 'horizontal evasion'; if you cannot use vertical evasion, all you got left is horizontal evasion. :DL |
Pardon for the double post.
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Look, I can see your just a bit skeptical. ;) I am not trying to convince you to do it my way, but the math is the math. |
So what is the MOST optimal search method, please let me know, because right now I'm driving around in the Marshalls about ready to head to the area between Rabaul and Truk. I've only Sunk Nibu Maru in the Marshalls, and that was because I picked up a hydrophone contact while surfaced.
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It is much better to think of searching in the same way Eugene Fluckey of the Barb did. He spent a lot of time explaining the situation, so I'm going to condense it. The fact is, we don't know the disposition of the enemy on the ocean. If you are static in the middle of the horde, you're going to be successful. If you're static in a vacuum, you're coming back with a goose egg. So you say, if you get a goose egg in 24 house, move! That's fine. Murphy's Law says you just moved from the next hot spot. The only thing we can say for sure is that in any moment in time, the enemy is distributed in an unknown array over the surface of the ocean. According to Fluckey, and I agree, the odds of finding a target approach unity when the distance between your sub and a target is within sensor range. So your job is to get within sensor range of as many targets as possible in a 24 hour period. The corollary of that statement is that the number of targets you encounter is directly proportional to the number of square miles of ocean surface you search each day. Let's do the math! You're static with a visual search radius of about 5 miles and a sonar search range of 20 miles on a good day. So you're searching a circle 20 miles in radius. The area you've searched is 3.14*20^2 square miles or 1,256 square miles. Let's move out! We'll assume a 20 mile range for our radar and we're moving on the surface for 24 hours at our best fuel economy speed of 9 knots. Now your searched area approximates a rectangle 40 miles wide and 216 miles long. That's 8,640 square miles. Since the enemy is moving and the effect of that movement is random we can safely ignore any effects on our results. Our movement will bring as many targets in range as it will leave beyond range. Therefore the comparison in the number of targets we develop can be expressed as the ratio between the two numbers of square miles searched. So you are 8640/1256 times more likely to develop a target when moving. That is 6.88 times more likely. Another valid way to interpret the data is that a patrol during which you are actively searching at 9 knots, you will develop 6.88 times more targets in the same number of days as you would be searching statically. But that is not the entire story. There are monstrous advantages to searching on the surface as opposed to searching submerged. Of most importance is the value of fully charged batteries. They can save your life, you know! |
Therefore I choose to surface patrol :)
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Ughh, too much typing. I'll try to find the relevent page in O'Kane's book. |
I am not sure how the surfaced vs. submerged argument got into this.:hmmm:
@gi_dan2987 I would generally use a more active searching method while in open waters such as you find yourself and to use a more static approach if you find yourself in a choke point really though you should try every tactic find what works best for you.Sometimes also you can just have a dry patrol. The sonar man being able to make passive contacts while on the surface is a game bug you could not do this in a real WWII sub so it is sort of a cheat(ever notice that spinning device of the deck of your sub that is the passive sonar head) To me it depends if you use an active search but try to cover too large an area or use to high a speed I can agree that you are actually reducing the odds of making contact. |
I'm not doubting your math, it's the tacit I'm questioning.
1 to 1.49 Your objective is to interdict enemy shipping in the Marshalls. A 10 kn. search will give you more contacts in a given period if time. Weather you get 12 contacts or 2 or 3 isn't all that important. If they aren't there they aren't there. What is important is to interdict as many as you can in the most efficient way possible and in the shortest time. According to the math that is a 10 kn. search. There will be another boat along to replace yours. The objective is to cut off supplies to the Marshalls not stay on patrol longer. If I come home with torpedoes in the tubes but have 6 kills in three weeks patrolling I have done my job. Someone else comes homes with the same results but stayed 4 and a half weeks, not so good, at least one ship that I sank the other guy didn't and the Marshalls got resupplied. My patrol wasn't cut short costing contacts but the most efficient way to conduct business. My short patrol will be followed up by another boat to continue the operation and he will get the ship I didn't get in the next week and a half. There are places where a static patrol is good, Tawi Tawi is one. Others have been mentioned. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the zig zag thing. The contacts are now moving through the area at a reduced speed overall and I would think that would increase to ratio in favor of a dynamic search? @ gi_dan If I'm in the Marshalls, I'd do my time and head to Truk or Rabaul as soon as I could. Magic |
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Magic |
I am fairly certain it is even mentioned in "Thunder Below" and some others that it was not possible to use passive sonar(hydrophones) on the surface for the obvious reason that the head is on top of the hull and therefore not in the water.Now a ping using the active sonar was possible of course these are on the keel more or less so they are always in the water they could be retracted in real life as well.
The rotating device near the bow is the JT head and the man operating this actually sat in fore torpedo room later in the conning tower.The previous design was JP which I believe was located somewhere inside the upper hull I am not sure because my reference "US Submarines Though 1945" does not go into much detail about the older WCA/WDA sets nor the JT but goes into much better detail on the later war gear.But it seems that the passive part of sonar systems always where located on top of the hull and the active on the bottom(later war some times two on bottom one on top for active) excluding the S-boats where it was all on the deck.Later in the war they also had WFA which could also detect mines with great accuracy and was also much more accurate against ships but this is not included in the game. In other words if you want to play more realistically then you cant use the passive sonar on the surface and in an S-boat you cant use any sonar at all fully surfaced.In a fleetboat you can use active sonar on the surface though it was done commonly I am pretty sure I recall its use being mentioned in "Thunder Below" and "Wahoo" of course it wold be used with great care and very briefly something the game does not really simulate is how the density of water effected the active and passive sonar of the submarine sometimes very strongly in a negative manner.(reducing range and accuracy) What helps you hide from the IJN also hinders your sonar or it should. look at this a little about the JT.You like math?Click on the Sonar home page at the bottom ans start from the first page of the manual you'll see tons of it. http://www.hnsa.org/doc/sonar/chap13.htm |
I've always had a problem with sonar, even active sonar, working on the surface. The problem I have is that if sonar works for a surfaced submarine then it should also work for a surface ship against other surface ships. I served on a destroyer and I don't recall ever hearing of anything like that. Of course I wasn't a sonarman, so maybe they just didn't tell me about it. If there is information that they used it and it worked, then they did use it and it worked.
I'm just sayin'. |
The issue with sonar not working on the surface is not where the heads are located, but basically a problem of ambient noise and the limitations of the SH engine.
To simplify the issue, to be able to hear sounds which are far away, you must not be close to a source of noise which is loud enough to cover far away noises. For example, if you are standing next to a noisy engine, then that is all you will hear. If you turn off the engine, you will be able to hear fainter noises which are farther away. The noise of the engine nearby masks fainter noises which are farther away. The same in a sub, if you are travelling at 2 knots 100 feet deep using electric motors, you generate relatively little noise and are able to hear sounds from farther away. If you are travelling at 10 knots on the surface using Diesel engines, you generate a lot more noise. In addition, you also have the turbulence caused by the ship moving at the surface which will also render the heads less effective. The noise is the reason why U-Boats running their diesels on Snorkel were unable to hear anything on sonar even though they were underwater. In theory, a motionless sub could use its sonar on the surface, but then we run into the limitations of the SH engine. In SH, Sonar is an on/off switch: when ships are within a certain range you hear them, when they are outside you don't. In SH 3/4, this range is not affected by speed, although in SH5, speed will degrade the effectiveness of Sonar. So modding the Sonar so you cannot use it on the surface is a practical solution to place the player in a similar situation to a WW2 sub skipper. |
That sir makes absolutely no sense if the passive sonar head is above the water then there is no way on this earth that it is gong to be able to hear anything the same would apply to the S-boats all of the sound gear is on the deck so if you are on the surface and you can see the gear in the air then it can not possibly be in the water to enable it to hear anything the location of the gear 100% has an effect if said gear is on the deck on the surface and not in the water.In fact a sub on the surface trying to use sound gear which is above water will hear nothing.
I agree that there are limitations in the SH4 simulation but it makes perfect sense for a piece of sound gear not actually being submerged in the water not to be able to hear what might be in the water so the SH4 sound man is evidently Kent Clark and has super hearing.You seem to be confusing various things causing interference in a situation where the sound gear actually is in the water.I am talking about sound gear actually not being in the water and with US Navy subs the passive gear was above the water while the sub was on the surface but the active gear exluding the S-boats was below the water while surfaced.So active sonar while surfaced yes passive sonar no though I doubt the active sonar would be very accurate in such a setting. EDIT: ok I found this in the very extensive US Navy Sonar manual from HNSA the manual Bilge Rat posted is also from HNSA but is from a different manual from US Navy Sonar pg.241; "Submarine listening equipment is designed to receive and reproduce underwater sounds-both sonic and ultrasonic-for the purpose of identifying the sounds and locating their sources. Sonic sounds (below 15,000 cycles per second) are made by propellers, engines, rudder motors, pumps, gear wheels, and many other devices. Ultrasonic sounds originate mostly from high-speed propellers. The bearings of the sources of sounds usually can be determined, so that targets can be located without the use of echo-ranging gear." "Model JP Listening Equipment DESCRIPTION Models JP-1, JP-2, and JP-3 equipments are used on submerged submarines to obtain bearings on other vessels by directional detection of underwater sounds. They can be used also to listen for own ship's noise. Models JP-2 and JP-3 differ from JP-1 in the amplifier circuits. Models JP-2 and JP-3 are alike except for the method of mounting the hydrophone." Which basically means that if you are only using the keel mounted ultrasonic heads you will not hear slower props in the sonic range as well or at all so you will hear something with a fast screw like a DD but not a slower screw or perhaps not as far or clearly.So in other words we are both wrong and both right though to get the full sonar picture the sub would need to be submerged. |
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