Oh?

There is no cheat code for "just" rebuilding the manufacturing basis. It needs to be financed, and that process is a complex thing with billions of intricacies. The current crisis at stockmarkets is not all for nothing, and once national industries today are acting as global, indepednant actors and no longer necessarily obey the ruling of national governments - it's more the other way around these years. - "Just" slap china in the face? Fact is that chinse economy is self-supplying and autark in all reghards that dirctly affect the survivability of the Chinese people, which of course especially means the agricultural sector. Their one problem is oil, like for us, but they have far moire money reserves to pay for it, plus they have close ties to many oil-producing countries inclduing the OPEC, and china can use the anti-Wetsern ressentiments in many Muslim oil-producing countries and Venezuela to work to their advantage. - Stopping all trade with them? The huge corporations do not ask for your permission to do so, you know. They have made many investem,ents, and want to see profit for that. sooner or later the Chinese will freeze many of them out and take possession of what they left behind, they already have established this as common practice, since many years. - Finally, quality, I have to say chinese goods slightly but surely imporve their quality, and in some fields they are already competing with international standards. The toys you mentioned: to a considerable ammount they were like they were due to design plans given to them from - their American orderer, Mattel. anyhow, these problems may have triggered some hyped attention, but in no way they are of the ammount that it does any damage to China'S trade and economical interests.

In other words: you understimate them, and you overestimate our own options.

The major problems they have: overaging of society due to the one-child-policy. Massive environmental pollution and poisened food. the major advanatge they have: unlimited quantities of low-wage workers, autarky regarding essential supplies for daily living of population. Monumental dollar reserves to be used as a weapon. Rapid decreasing of gap between their technological standard, and ours. An authoritative government that is not really challenged by the population. An understanding that their state-controlled economy model can profit from implementing certain principles of market economy. A rapidly increasing power of their military, of which some analysts say it already has the capacity to deny foreign navies entrance into China's local maritime sphere of interest. a massive alliance of small nations that in the UN and other bodies could be told to rally with China, and against the West.

I think we missed the time window to mess with the Chinese. We can't get them econo0mically, but they can get us. We cannot get them militarily. We cannot get them fincially, but they can get us. And they can strike the international stockmarket whenever they want - or let the mere unspoken threat of this work in their favour.

So what is left that "just" needs to be done to teach them...? - With one hint you are right, though. We cannot start by confronting them. We must start by bringing our own house in order and storm-prove. But that is a problem for Europe. And an even greater problem for America, which is depending on living on tick beyond all reason and sanity. This is not the 40s and 50s, and they will not come back

Some graffiti left by former residents during the olympic preparations.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8229/59171062yj2.jpg

I'm no expert in economics, I was speaking in general. If possible, we need to cut away what china uses which is its cheap labour for foreign companies. Cut away that and the economy could possibly collapse in China. I also said that it will be decades, maybe even 30 - 40 years before the west can take on china in terms of infrastructure and a manufacturing base. Personally I hate China, I think that the world has been weak, foolish and damned right ignorant in its dealings with what is essentially a dictatorship participating in the boarder-line ethnic cleansing in Tibet, and massacre of any and all opposition to the Communist regime. I hope that this years Olympia is a complete disaster, biggest in the history of the Olympics. I hope to see wide spread political turmoil in China, simply because the world has to make a stand to this barbaric regime.

Possible? Maybe. Am I talking complete crap? Quite possibly. I just get very angry when a country which has so much blood on its hands can be so prosperous. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

AFAIK no UK athlete has no to sign a gag order.

You may be wrong there:

10th of February this year:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1770&ct=5

Also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nolympics110.xml
Athletes face Olympic ban for criticising China

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/02/10/olympics.britain/
British Olympic team told silence is golden

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11488&size=A
Beijing applauds the gag order on athletes. Great Britain is reconsidering it

And also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/7237227.stm
Olympic gag row leads to review

How? Paying our own workers even less? That means total social collapse of our siceities, and probabaly civil war.

no, it would slow them down due to losses in export. But they are perfectly survivable by their own, regarding the basic supply of their population. And by their enormous dollar reserves they could heavily retaliate. This is an almost biblical vulnerability of the US. that this allowed to continue, and to even wieden, and not sealing this archulkles heel, is something that tells me that some major minds in Washington have no strategic understanding at all. That is like not seing the link between the Iraq war, today'S oil price, and the massive blowback the war created for internal ameircan policies, finances, and social system.

Again my question: how? Even cheaper workers? As a matter of fact, our social structures alrerady are in desintegration, and middle class slowly but increaisngly collapsing due to - in germany - every decreasing purchasing power of private households: since over ten years, wage rises did not even compensate inflation, not to mention taxes, energy prices, etc. the way the Fed handles the dollar crisis dramatically helps to increase inflation worldwide (they should be shot for their total incompetence). and the weak dollar already massively damages european exporters, in other words: in order to support the American understanding of how to fund the economy, no matter how uncompetitive some parts of it (especially steel, manufacturing standards are lacking behind 30 years), really is, money is pumped into the market like crazy and is printed as if there is no limit. The ECB's understanbding of what role it has to play, is totally opposed to that of the Fed: the ECB's primary responsibility is to try to control inflation - not to help it increasing, like the Fed's policy does.

No need to hate them, let'S keep politics and their damn party seperate from the culture and history. Let's keep 70 years of the party's history and 5 thousand years of history of ancient china two separate things, please. Else you would need to throw a Chuang Tse or Lao Tse, a Hui Neng or huang Po into the same pot with barbars like Mao Tse Tung - and that would be a great loss, really.

Agreed.

totally unrealistic. You do not seem to see that the vast majority of Chinese still support the way there country is functioning, and supoport the party - even if eventually wishing for some reforms here, some more livberties there. All in all, the demonstratoing students on the Square of Heavenly Peace were NOT representative for the Chinese population all together.

Has not been any different with any other of the great empires of the past. and in historical comparison, china may often have ruled with strong fist to it's inside, but comopared to other empires, it acted astoundingly peaceful and unagressive concerning it'S outside. In fact it rested so much in itself, that it took this status for granted and become almost defenseless, which was to be seen during the Mongole's storm, and again in the modern era when the Western powers arrived.

Don't let emotions blind you. Courage, reason and determination is good enough, like the Torrero shows. If you allow to decide by emotions, you do not decide, but get decided. In other words: you become the bull ending dead in the arena. ;)

I wonder what happens if there is a bloodbath in Tibet.

Boycott the olympics. I am all for it.

It is to be assumed that that is in the making. currently they systemtically try to get rid of any foreign eyes, visitors, joiurnalists, and seal of the country. what will happen if they are successful in that, I will not imagine.

The Dalai Lama, against his usual habits, has become very loud and clear in words by his usual standards, talking openly of genocide taking place.

If that becomes grim reality, shame on any nation sending its athletes there. It's already a shame right now. Must it really end like with the the British soccer team 1938: giving Hitler the Hitler-greeting with straight right arms when standing in the Berlin stadium? I did not know this detail until i saw a photograph from back then, yesterday.

Kind of difficult when China is the one of the most important trading partners of the US of A and most of the american debt is in chinese hands.
The US of A should lead the world by example, but it is easier to start a war in the middle east for bogus reasons that to say f**k off to China.
Its all about money and real politic.

Europe should just as well have boycotted the games. :down:

Its just the case that they can't take them on militarily, not very easy to do it diplomaticly. The UN would have to pass sanctions on China or something, but on what??? Oil imports?

Latest reports now indicate "hundreds of dead". Additional major forces get shifted to Tibet, it seems an example is to be executed and Peking is determned to shatter the rebellion at all cost and turn it into a graveyard'S silence, so that the Olympics will run "peacefully". that is good, since it makes it easier for wetsern governments not to think about the Olymics. The brighter the shine, the more comfortable the mind.

Spit.

Poor dogs who live down there.

I used to stay away from subsim, not because of you guys, but due to the lack of my time in playing subsims (I can't stand myself playing 2 hours of games only to finish a war patrol) as my public examination is approaching

If you still remember me, I am probably quite unique here ~ owning the identity of Chinese in such a Westeners oriented forum (in a Westeners oriented game), and if you do remember me, I made quite a strong argument here defending the whole Chinese that, the poisonous toy stuff is originated from your entrepreneurs, those who does nothing except gaining by repeated exploitation of cheap labour. I can assure you that, why they own their own yacht, their own island, and so on, is because they mistreated the developing countries.

I come back today, is because I know that someone has opened such a topic here. Now, may I get the chance to make the whole stuff clear

Undoubtedly, the problem originates from different races living in China. Having more than 50 races mixing together in this piece of land, it usually catalyzes problems.

Now, the problem emerges, first by a demostration, then to a crisis. As all of you know, Han people are beaten to death and have their shops looted and set alight. It is than clear that, no matter what the reaction of PRC government is, those responsible for this, is the monks who "avocates" and starts the flaming.

Now, Tibet is turned to chaos, by the act of the mob (Zhang people). If you were the government official, you would definite try to stop them. Remember IRA, please. The first reaction is that the police come. But the people there arn't afraid of the police and they even gang up on police and set fires on police cars. So, more police comes and armored cars started driving into the city. IMAGINE if the armored cars didn't come, what would have happened? Probably the mob has seized the city and more innocent lives are perished.

One might wonder if Chinese government employed brute force and unhuman ways to treat the protestors. But wait, the demostraters has already turned into a group of terrorists, killing innocent people. I'm afraid I've to recall the 911 incident. The al-Queda group attacked and killed the innocents. The USA, the so called promoter of peace and human rights, attacked Iraq, and the operation, not only unable to uproot the terrorist groups, indicated by the terrorist activities in the previous years, but also killed the innocent civilians. Furthermore, brute force and maltreatment of prisoner of war also exists. Remember Black water company which kills civilians? Remember the brutal and barbaric waterboarding interrogating means? Remember those indecent, naked photoes of POW taken in those POW camps? That USA does not offer basic human rights is than proved crystal clear.

Some Korean farmers who are opposing globalization protests when WTO has their meeting. Based on my knowledge, the Korean farmers are armed and create havok in the city. They are retaliated by the use of tear gas and pepper spray, and sometimes, more harsh stuff.

I'm not saying that every American is that barbaric, but unfortunately, some of them are not solving problems in a proper way. While they are blaming others, they never review their mistakes made. This pathepatic character of some Americans, unfortunately, damages the dignity of American and the human race.

In Chinese, USA means beautiful country. However, I don't find some of the people beautiful.

This is what USA has done in retaliation to 911 attack. Now, isn't the act of Chinese government acceptable? At least, they don't kill the innocents in the attempt to breakdown the Zhang mobs?

Some might suggest boycotting the Olympic games. Now, did we boycott the Sydney Olympic games despite their participation in the unjustice Iraq war? It is totally unfair for any government to bar their atheletes from joining Olympic simply based on political issues. I'm sure that you guys know the 1936 Berlin Olympic was exploited by Hitler in his attempt to show Aryan superiority. The 1980 and 1984 Olympic games, held in USSR and USA respectively, was boycotted, due to the Cold War. DO YOU REALLY WANNA SEE A SECOND COLD WAR??? Mutual understanding is always vital amid the occasionally crisis

Finally, some of you suggested USA to start their primary and secondary production to henge against the Chinese expansion. I can almost guarantee you that this won't work. Would you accept an job offer with monthly salary $200 so that your product can compete with ours? LOL Undoubtedly you wouldn't. In addition, our government owns quite a lot of USA bonds. If we sell all of them, I'm sure the USA dollar would further depreciates and USA forced into a recession. I don't think HK will be affected. By the time this happens, we might have pegged with RMB. But I'm sure USD will never be pegged with RMB, by political reasons. This is NOT a threat, but a friendly reminder ~ this is how the world leaders play the game, seriously. If one do gain by making friend with another, these two guys become close friends, vice versa. I can also guarantee that, if the gain from collaborating with Chinese is great enough, USA will abondon Taiwan, and let us unite.

Don't take what I say as threats. They are just facts. Today my essay is focused on USA, but this also applies to almost every Westen country. REMEMBER, flaming and blaming Chinese has got no human helps nothing. De facto, you are already affected by the mass media ~ remember the Mantel apologising September last year? What they say is completely unjust to Chinese. Again, if you have any problems, feel free to post here. I love arguing with others and debating. I'm sure we'll learn more, with debating.

I HATE PEOPLE USING FOUL WORDS DESCRIBING CHINESE JUST BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF MINORITY. BEING RACIST HERE WILL LEAD TO YOUR BANNING, GUARANTEED.

I'm sure the USA killed more Iraqis then us

Let's draw your "estimation" parallel to that of the Chinese

................2003 invasion of Iraq .................2008 Tibet Crisis
Objective: Undermine terrorist group .............Eliminate mobs
...............(groups rebelling USA) ...............(groups rebelling Chinese government)
Fatality of
innocents: ....>=3000* ..............................>=100 (by your data)

* source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

(edited since the table isn't showing properly)

Who is more bloody? You judge.

USA for all its failings is a democracy, China is a totalitarian state.
Its a subtle difference but a difference nonetheless.
No discussion of China can ignore this basic fact.

Good to hear that your point of view isn't affected by the mass media

For anyone who wanna reply, please kindly take some time in reading my post (sorry, a bit long)

If you disagree with me, please kindly tell me why so that we can have a discussion. A discussion only emerges when a consenus is yet to be reached