As one of your prior post eluded...it goes both ways as both secs claim they are being treated unfairly by the others when it comes to the Constitution.

You are being just as closeminded as we christians are.:roll::roll:

Finnaly we have a good Christian person on this forum.

Not really considering Separation of Church from State, which should be enforce.

Go to church to worship, go to school to learn; DON'T combine the two.

Ok, now that is completely BS what happened! :o I hope she wins the lawcase.

Iceman should be noticing these post pretty quick and you'll really see someone who is passionate about his religion.

Even though I'm a christian, I am a moderate as I see both sides of an issue. For instance, I was shocked with Pat Robertson was making his comments about Chavez being assassinated, yet praying to God on his idiot 700 club show.

Then, on the otherside of the story, to have the ACLU complain because a group of christian kids want to go out and pray during their lunch, but totally endorse a GBLT group to post their posters all over the school.

Merged. We don't need two threads to discuss the same core issue. Keep it civil. Keep it reasonable.

The Management

Now that the USA is more diverse than it was even in the 50's, I see the point of keeping it out of school.

However, as my other post shows, if you make it one way for one group of people, do the same for another group. Don't tell a group of christian kids they can't pray publically, then allow a group of muslims to openly do the same as not to offend their religion.

I think the point here is that you can choose to believe in creationism if you want to, or not, but forcing it on young minds is not allowing them a choice.

The vast majority of 'believers' around the globe have not made a choice to believe their creed, but had it impressed upon them to a greater or lesser degree by either parental beliefs, peer pressure, or schooling, I'm sure most people who have been subjected to this would loudly decry the fact, but if they stepped back, or were in a position to step back, they'd see it was so. This of course is why religions tend to make much of the 'you'll burn for doubting' type philosophies, in order to prevent their congregations from considering such objective views. If this were not the case, then there would surely be a greater geographical diversity of creeds around the globe, as people came to a particular belief instead of having it forced upon them, as evidenced by the regional differences we do see.

By way of example, it's apparent even in the signature of the Virgin Mary on one person's posts in this thread, as with a great deal of other Christian iconography, with Jesus, the Apostles, Mary etc portrayed as 'western looking', which is a little unlikely for people born in the Middle East and merely points up that it is a manufactured, or at the very least 'stage-managed' regional creed, as opposed to the truth.

None of the above proves or disproves that there is or is not a god. But one man-made religion is no more credible than any other theological belief system around the globe. And look at it this way, if you believe in something because you were told it from a young age, as was your counterpart on the other side of the globe, you can't both be right, and saying you are right and the other person is wrong, is nothing more than the blind faith born of such indoctrination or peer pressure.

Be nice to one another is the only religion you need, and you don't need whistles, bells, candles, prayer books, mats or robes to do that.

:D Chock

That video and the school reaction reminded me of this recent video of Pat:

I care for people's beliefs as much as I care for the wall colour inside their flats - as long as they do not talk day in day out about it and want to tell everybody that he has to paint his own home like they do, it is not my problem. But when they think they must missionise others into their mental issues, and when they think they have whatever a duty to impose their beliefs onto society, and paint the whole street in the colours of their house and call that freedom and peace and whatever, they become annoying. If they became annoying, then they are a problem - not only for me, but for all who do not share their hear-say.

"Why do atheists care for religion":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4fQA9mt-Mg

In the end, religion simply does not have the substance to survive it's analysis by reason. that's why religions wants to prevent independant thinking, and even abuse children to sow their mental virus into their minds so that people from childhood on will be handicapped and unable to critically examine what they have been fed with since their early days, by preventing to learn what their brain is meant for: and that is not believing, but thinking. That is classical sect-behavior to keep members in line, and depending on the group's leaders. Opus Dei demands obligatorily to uncritically follow commands by superiors without ever asking questions. It demands people obligatorily to cut private contacts and family contacts whereever possible. It demand aggressive missionizing of others.

These "qualities" speak for themselves. and they are not in favour of humanistic ethics, but supression, tyranny and mental self-mutilation.

Much proud words on what you believe in, Silentrunner. Now give the evidence, please. Or at least a theory that can even come close to the explanatory reasonable value of evolution theory. Becasue that is, what science is about: putting observations into an order that explains these observations best and with at least as little contradictions as possible. Not so religion, not so Opus Dei, not so creationism, all of this is a tour de force through the world of inner contradictions.

What ever the subject you should not ram it down there gullet, people can think and decide for themselves. They have not done themselves much of a favour for there actions.

Recent conclusions by researchers on animal behavior have expressed for the first time, that they observe behavior patterns andhabits in apes they study that equal altruistic motives, emotions like humour and sádness, and social manners that probably are even needed and are essential for a social animal that lives in grouos that are meant to surive as a social structure. This shows that you can have what could be described as ethics and morals in animals like apes. So, morals without believing in deities and without having religions - is possible. Not to mention that atheists that see themselves nevertheless as spiritual have lauinched fewer words than any religious or political or materialistic ideology, althiugh their behavior rules are not enchanted by the blessings of some deity that demands ultimate obedience and submission, else floods the world and drowns all.

And where man has both religion and the bad habit to use violence in enforcing them and even wage wars in their names, apes do not wage wars for their social morals, and do not believ in deities. i then wonder what the link between dogmas on gods, and wars is. Only some tribes of chimps are known to systemtically hunt other apes - not to impose their morals on them, but for the profane purpose to eat them.

In today's society, they are. Atheists are losing the fight while the religious ones are winning it. If they don't conform with society then they'll face the consequences. That's the way the world works.

And the reason why I'm saying it in the Christian case is because they're typically the ones causing it. The official religion of the United States is Christianity. At least 55% of the country is made up of Christians. Now since they are typically the ones who win these battles, it seems to me it's time to step up for the weak and dismantle the strong.

Well, you're free to have your opinion, but unfortunately I don't give a damn.

Reasons:

People found out that unlimited consumarism doe snot necessarily make you happy.

Peopole found out that capoitalistic ideology does not answer questions that due to man's nature of being a spiritual being (=able to self-reflect and see a context greater than one own's immediate desires) pop up in man's mind necessarily: where do I come from, where do I go? why am I here, how much time do I have? What's the meaning of this cosmos. Victor frankl: a man who has a "why" to live for, will bear every "how" (translate from the German).

people found out that money cares for material needs, but does not satisfy your mind.

Rights and freedoms that has been fought for and emerged well-deseved from our history, did not stop at the blossoming of our culture, but kept on evovling, even beyond what was rteaosnbale and desribale, effecetively turning more and more into partially grotesque pervertions of their former meaning.

Materialism has sowed greed and envy, and made social climate cold. Social disbalances caused a desire to either see a meaning in them, or to change them, or both. People having stones, no hearts in their chest, are not warm.

Our genetical history drives us towards preferring (by tendency) to follow a strong alpha-animal who tells us what to do. Him or his dogma.

Religion should be a private issue - says me, but also: jesus. Not a public one. At home you can believe you are the highly developed form of a bicycle - I do not care and will not comment. but if you sit in the movies beside me and start to oil your skin with machinery oil, you will get something to hear from me. Your freedom ends, where you affect the freedom of others. Your responsibility begins where you affect the stcurtures of the community, and it's goings. Religion is no excuse to violate that principle. and if you would be serious about following the teachings of Jesus the socalled Christ when calling yourself a Christian, then you would not try to behave like that all by yourself. I am a fan of much of the wise things he had said, he really was a reasonably guy. That's why I am so bitterly against what you are telling me, or Escriva ( if that is his real name, since he for mysterious reasons changed his names so very often). "Non religious people", you said. I consider myself to be very religious or spritual, or however you wish to call it. but I do not believe that any gods exist, although I thunk that creation is not by random chance. I do not need any deity to be at peace with the cosmos and accept it like it is. I even go a step beyond that and say that theistic belives prevent true mystic exprience , atheism is a precondition for true and direct religious experience.

In the end, when studying other cultures and history even you have to learn and admit that there are relgions that are not theistic at all. Atheism in no way is the same like anti-religiosity.

And concerning the reasons and causes and the afterlife: what is so difficult in eventually saying "I do not know for sure"? Doesn't hurt your honour to do so.

"Keep thy religion to thyself."


Edit: Ninethousand! All drinks on me!

The core of the issue, is really simple.

Respect the beleifs of others.

Unfortunately, nobody really does, and both sides of this issue have the "im being persecuted" menatilty, in a bid to have the moral high ground over the other.

The result, is a never ending sea saw battle of Christian groups trying to assert themselves with the unfortunate result of "forcing down the gullet", and groups that oppose them simply because they are "forcing down the gullet", or feel that they are.

It's my belief that "Freedom of religion" means that every person in this nation is free to worship god in their own way. Similarly they are free to not worship god, or worship another diety altgether if they so choose. Beleifs such as these a very personal, and i think private matter that should be kept between the indvidual and their creator; and should not be put on a spotlight, in any form or context.

Unfortunatly, these private beliefs are the core makup of what makes up a person, and if you attack that belief in any form, people will react because its an attack on their core being. This is why i say, "the best way to make an enemy, is to try and change them". When someone says, "I beleive in this (insert beleif here)" what we all should strive to say is, "Thats fine", instead of interjecting their beliefs with our own.