Well I agree on the point that Marinesko was a victim of Stalin's regime but who in Russia wasn't? From Marinesko's point of view he certainly was a war hero and should have been rewarded as such, especially since his fellow captain of L-3 who sank the Goya was awarded that honor.

However I personally still have problems with attacking ships carrying refugees, wounded and POWs, so I feel strongly that each of the attacks mentioned above was completely unnecessary when it comes to achieving your goal of winning the war, since the fast majority of the people carried on those ships weren't part of the war anymore in any case and since the war was almost over to begin with.

I'd like to give the crew of the British sub as well as the pilots attacking the Cap Arcona, the benefit of the doubt since the pilots were surely ordered to attack that ship and the sub crew couldn't know who was on board. Nevertheless Marinesko surely knew the Russian troops were advancing on Gotenhafen and lay in wait for a refugee ship to leave the harbor. And he did the same again twelve days later. Not very heroic in my opinion. If I remember correctly the German sub attacking the Laconia thinking it was a troop transport and finding out it also carried Italian POWs tried to help and saved hundreds of POWs which eventually led to the uboats flying the Red Cross and broadcasting a message of truce, being attacked by U.S. aircraft.

I quated a "Stalin's regims victim" just to highlight that many things could be seen from various point of view. Possible he wasn't awarded because of too slic moral aspects of the event, may be for his personal problems in relations with officers from higher staff, or as he loved girls and drinks more than it was allowed to a Soviet officer. Still, he is the luckiest Soviet submariner. It's for sure, he couldn't know who was on Willhelm Gustloff and his duty was to attack enemy shipment in the area. Becides, the ship was sailing under guard of naval vessels that made it a legal target, and the Germans used it to evacute troops along with refugees.
In any case this event of history could be included into campaign since we have both AI S class submarine and WG. Possible, someone will be lucky to get there in time and made some chages.

Thank you, I belive my WWII reference books are still much uncomplete.

From what I read of Marinesko I believe his lack of discipline in the years before were the main reasons for his not being promoted, but Stalin's regime might also have influenced that.
That the Wilhelm Gustloff also transported troups is basically correct, and she wasn't designated a hospital ship anymore and was escorted. However the number of refugees on board was more than ten times that of the troups.
Just following orders isn't exactly an excuse for everything but it is also true that we cannot say for certain what Merinesko knew and didn't know about the passengers. I also won't give him any personal responsibility, but having known that the first ship he sank had so many refugees abord (and he would've heard them scream and die in the water) and still attacking a second refugee ship lets me conclude that he didn't care much for the loss of life of innocent bystanders. And I'm also fairly sure he would have attacked with no escorts as well.

We both know both the German Army and the Russian Army did some terrible attrocities conquering each others land and we probably both still have living relatives who experienced that firsthand.
Luckily my family fled East Prussia by train and not with the Gustloff. And even more luckily that time is finally over!

Agree, but we neither should make him a monster, nor a war criminal it was just a daily routine of that horrible time.

If it's true, then I have to agree that it's not particularly heroic. However, I don't know if it's posible to wage a "clean" war on that massive scale. That was not the first mistake anyone made in a war, and it certainly wasn't the last. One thing I never understood was the attack on Dresden, but that has nothing to do with submarines.

I wish that this thread doesn't get too gloomy, however. And those ships look great!

Agreed. Was never my intention to make him a monster.

Well neither party was interested in a clean war. The Germans did terrible things to Polish and Russian civilians which many deemed to be below them and thus not worthy to be protected and the Russian paid them back pretty good. And in my opinion Desden (and other German cities) was part revenge by the British for attacking London and part the philosophy that a people can be turned against its leaders by destroying their cities. As we all know: it didn't work. Neither in WW2 nor in Vietnam.

As far as I'm concerned: Vietnam = Can of Worms.

This is not an attack on you Woof1701, but rather my opinion on this very thorny subject.

You're right there. Didn't want to talk about it in particular anyway. Was just meant as an example of a war practice against civilians that was practised in various wars without any results.

Hello Kaleun´s


here some pictures of the overworked Version !

http://forum-uwaffe.opel-club-saarbu.../Gustloff1.jpg

http://forum-uwaffe.opel-club-saarbu.../Gustloff2.jpg

http://forum-uwaffe.opel-club-saarbu.../Gustloff3.jpg

Thanx to D.Kruger for posting immages of the ship !


Hope i can release this ship soon

Greets

Maddy

Hi Maddy,
would it be possible to give "her" the green stripe around the hull and maybe a shipname on the skin??
It would make her nearly perfekt.:rock:
Kind regards and many thanks.

I remember that a name would be mirrored on the other side. Or maybe I couldn't leave that bottle alone.

An Hospital Ship version would be great! Great work, Max! :up:

Hi,

an Hospital-Version is in work but the name will repeat so badly on the hull so i cant do that.

Greets

Maddy

YES! I like them, for sure.

Fantastic SEA PARADE :)