SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - The human element...

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- - The human element... (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119998)

I like the idea of more crew interaction but know enough about game writing/programming to realize that another element of the game would suffer (ie poorer AI or other essential sim elements). The one thing that I think can add to creating a "closer relationship" with the crew is mandatory rotation. It was typical of US Subs to have up to a third of the crew rotated out after a patrol and the officers sometimes had to fight a "paper battle" to keep some men they really wanted on the boat.

But I do NOT want the developers to spend time on this aspect of a sim at the expense of critical game mechanics. I can always choose to rotate my crew after each patrol and--well--actually I frequently do send some 1st class petty officers packing when I get too many of them. But there are always a copuple with familiar names I like to keep aboard.

Cheers!

Peto

You make some good points madjack. Speaking for myself I know I am far more upset so to speak when I lose a boat if I have a crew that I have captained for a few missions where some have specialised, have had promotions, decorations, experience etc. The status of your crew is a dynamical element in the game with cause = effect.

JScones built a mod in SH3 called SH3 Commander which went some way to increase the human element. Unfortunately he is not going to do it for SH4 (for valid reasons) but has offered his knowledge to any other modder who wants to bring this into SH4. Here is hoping.

Lots of good IDEAS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Calling a moderator a 'hard ass' is not the best way to make friends. You may or may not have valid arguments, but it all comes to moot if everyone is put off by your candor. Try to play nice, yes?

Agreed: name calling is not an Officer.& A Gentleman's bid for respect.........!:yep:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peto

I agree with this. I would like them to get the actual basics of simulating a submarine down pat before they attempted to make a crew simulator. I personally would be less interested in the ins and outs of the crew's life and keeping watch rotations and whatnot. That wasn't the captain's job, it was the XO's. However, adding more voices and voice notifications of critical events would be welcome.

Please drop the combative attitude as well...it's not the SubSim way!

This idea would help a lot.

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Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Right on target Sir....!

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Originally Posted by madjack

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

IMHO, the simulation games are just that, simulations of man and machine. The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings. It is about tactics and making choices as the captain of the boat. I do not see how the human element would add to the game. There is less interaction with the crew compared to SH3 but on the other hand, under severe attack the men are sweating and some have their shirts off wiping their brow. If you add features like the Sims series for gaming consoles, one would spend more time doing interior decorating then learning how to use the TDC, tactics and making the correct decisions in attempt to make a simulation of submarine warfare. If anything, more voices are needed. We are missing, "depth charge in the water', 'ship spotted at such and such degrees'. How about a simple 'mark' or 'mark bearing' when the TDC is updated. Currently, the lack of chatter has really turned the men in automotons.

Heh - I wondered how long it would take before some hard-ass would mention 'consoles' and 'The Sims' in one sentence.

Look, I don't want to consolify the SH series (and mentioning The Sims is a strawman), but why this abhorrence for giving the men under your command a little more depth?

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The submarine simulations are you, your machine and understanding how it works to accomplish sinkings.

But surely that's not how it was? As captain, it wasn't just you and your boat. It was you, your boat and your crew. As captain, you lived with them for months at a time - why not at least give a bit more of a nod towards that fact? To me it's odd to talk about SH being a comprehensive simulation, yet the fact these machines were crewed by men is given only the most cursory of workovers. If you read any account from a WW2 submariner, he won't give just the technical accounts of a patrol (i.e. 'made crashdive after spotting plane'), he'll also talk about the crew and what was going on with them.

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I do not see how the human element would add to the game.

I think you're dead wrong. I agree, I wouldn't like to see some of the technical aspects watered down - definitely not 'consolised', but adding a bit more crew depth would really add 'depth' to the game.

The other thing is - is this not a valid area for the SH series to develop? We don't know if there'll be another SH, but one thing's for sure, they have to keep attracting new customers? A little bit of exposition as to the men on your boat might be just the thing to bring in a new round of customers and get them hooked on subs.

Quote:

Then you might as well have a notepad next to your pc and write little stories on that

Mate - I'm not going to keep a little story pad nearby - ok? I made the suggestion for a personal captain's diary as an easy way for a game designer to give the game a bit more human interest.

Hardass I'm not. Creating a fantasy world with a 3D generated crew on a hard drive talking or repeating the same old dribble does not make sense to me. Sure, you hear the same old voices that pertain to the operation of the boat and what is happening. I do not need to stand infront of a 3D generated person and talk about Mary Jane Rottencrotch in the last port of call. Also, adding crew depth I do not believe will attract more customers to the genre. Selling a complete, bug free game will do that. As I stated, the only depth I need to see is increasing more voices of things happening, ie depth charge in water, ship spotted....one warship, two merchants.... something to this effect. How is looking at a guy and hear him repeat at every sitting..."Do you want to play Cribbage?" crew interaction?

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Originally Posted by donut

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Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Right on target Sir....!

Exactly Donut! I need more chatter from sonar, WO and Weapons Officer. I'm not talking about the latest crap game interaction either. I need hardcore current information on the DD coming my way!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by madjack

Ah the internet.

Write a posting that asks for a thoughtful response...

...and get a dashed-off reply by 'alunatic' who misses the point, several commas, fullstops and misrepresents what you've written.

Gotta love it:up:

First I was drunk last night and second it really dosent matter about punctuation.

Easy on the rum mates :lol: Nuth' wrong with expressing opinions. personaly I'd like a LITTLE more crew interaction. Anvart an someone else is working on clickable crew members. Maybe we will see something good come out of it, your option to use it or not:arrgh!:

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

And you do it well :up:

RDP

There is a very logical and rational idea to solve this entire issue. Turn your computer room into a submarine. Close the windows when you dive, shut the blinds, and dont shower. Have your wife/girlfriend only give you meals at certain times of the day and tell him/her to nag at you in a sailor's voice.

Really...this is a game...not reality. If you want to play the game at 1x time compression from port, talk to your seamen, interact with the devices, write in a diary....

....join the Navy.

I really don't understand the need for more 'immersion' in something that is not trying to be the parallel to reality in the 1940s pacific. The game is SPECIFICALLY about commanding a submarine with the intent of shooting torpedos and sinking ships. Everything else is a side BENEFIT......the fact that its based on a real war, the fact that the boats were real, the fact that we have crews to mess with, the fact theres damage.....those are all side benefits. You're talking about bringing reality into the whole equation which is just a foolish idea. Not only would it cost countless more manhours to produce the AI and diverse settings for crew immersion, but it would also just be a wasted effort. The SH4 community won't like the game more just because the developers make some radical new immersion system.

You don't have to be a smartass just because you find a few things about the game wrong. And yes, from your very first post, you came off as a smartass.

Gents,

Let's all not forget that in r/l submariners were/are picked for their emotional stability and lack of "drama" in the first place.

While I agree that a bit of small talk would add to the overall atmosphere of the sim and help to bring the crew to life, so-to-speak, it's really not necessary IMHO.

I think it's a question of imagination, and a user's ability to use a little bit of it when playing a subsim.

If you really want consequences, or a reason to pause before acting on those command decisions, then play with the TM v1.4 mod, and play "dead is dead" @ 100% realism. Really brings the game to life for me. Well, as much as possible anyway considering that I'm sitting in front of a PC in my 'puter room, all at about 2,000'MSL (local elevation where I live).

No disprespect intended to anyone, the above is merely my opinion.

Regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

AVG is no hard-ass.

RDP

Nope... that's my job!

heeheehee...

JCC

Yeah, good cop, bad cop thing;)

I also thought the human element was sorely missing from SH4. It seemed more sterile in tone than SH3, to me.