SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - SH4 - post 1.2 status: A Plan of Action

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- Silent Hunter 4: Wolves of the Pacific (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=202)

- - SH4 - post 1.2 status: A Plan of Action (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114964)

BTW, just to clarify: My intend is not to harrass the devs. I'm pretty happy that there is a SHIV and even in its current state I'm enjoying it a lot and it's far from unplayable, like some people here portray it. What I'm saying is that if people want to hit Ubisoft, they will most probably hit the devs instead, regardless how often they state "It's Ubisoft, not the devs." Those are romantic words on the internet as opposed to contracts and money in the real world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartc

all this "BOYCOTT / SUE UBI!" is not only half of the story, but if you think the devs are not to blame for any of that and want to see them stay in business it won't be helpfull to that cause at all.

good post, heartc... thanks for the perspective!
:up:

i wonder though what you might suggest as recourse in the event of 1.3 never surfacing?
simply grin and bear it? it is afterall just a game, but it'd sure be nice to see it reach it's potential...
:hmm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdkbph

First, write a letter of complaint to UBI, documenting the defects in SH4 and requesting either a fix or a refund.

Second, should UBI fail to respond to our satisfaction, file a complaint with the local govenment Consumer Protection Agency.

For folks in the US, UBI has offices in California, and regardless which state you're from or where you made your purchase, that puts the transaction under the jurisdiction of the California State Attorney General. The following links to a form letter that can be used for the initial complaint to UBI.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/r_r/complain.htm

This particular letter is no better or worse than others I've seen, or anything I could come up with myself, but I would recommend that we all use the same letter format, the exact same list of defects, and make the same exact request for remediation (fix or refund). In this way there will be no doubt in their minds that they are dealing with an organized effort, making it harder to ignore or dismiss.

In order to better target our complaints, I've identified the following corporate officers within UBI:

YVES GUILLEMOT
President and CEO

ALAIN CORRE
Executive Director, EMEA Territories

LAURENT DETOC
Executive Director, North America

My suggestion would be to address the complaint to the CEO as well as the appropriate territory director. As you might expect, these individuals insulate themselves from direct contact with the consumer fairly well... there is no actual contact info posted on their web sites. I did however find contact info, including email addresses, for the following media relations and corporate communications folks:

Christophe Grandjean
Corporate Media Relations Coordinator
christophe.grandjean@ubisoft.com

Jaime Borasi
Senior Manager
Corporate Communications
jaime.borasi@ubisoft.com

My suggestion is to email the linked form letter to thse individuals, along with attachments (if necessary) documenting the defects in SH4, and request that they forward the email to the CEO and territory director. Names and email addresses... enough to hold them accountable, and suitably placed to forward the complaint to the actual addressees.

Not that I expect a satisfactory response. But that's where the "hold accountable" part comes in. After the two week grace period referenced in the 1st complaint letter (linked above), the next step is to fill out the on-line complaint form at the California AG web site, here:

https://app.dca.ca.gov/cru/gencomplaint.asp

Note that this form requires that you provide information regarding who at UBI you contacted about this issue. Our answer will be "the CEO", et al.

As to the complaint itself... just a repeat of what was included in the UBI letter. I would highly suggest that this be kept brief - perhaps a numerical count of defects by category (x number of critical defects, y number of non-critical) with maybe the top 3 or 4, such as those Neal spelled out in his petition thread, specifically referenced. A note that we would be willing to provide a complete list of defects on request would probably be a good idea as well.

And regarding the expected resolution... the only reasonable thing we can ask for here is a fix or a refund.

Now all the above links and suggestions are related to US purchasers. I live in the US, so you'll have to forgive me if this whole thing comes off a bit US-centric. I'm sure, however, that there are some enterprising folks out there who can dig up the same type of info and contacts for your parts of the world.

And even for folks in the US, you might also try poking around your State AG's web site to see if they have a similar vehicle for complaint. If so, there is no reason not to file the complaint in your state as well as in California. I do feel it's important to include California though, as that's the one common denominator among us and the place where the weight of our numbers will be most evident.

Anyway, that's my $0.02 on the matter....

JD

This sounds like the perfect solution to me. All I want is a fix or a refund and this seems like the best (most likely) way to get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by heartc

So, all this "BOYCOTT / SUE UBI!" is not only half of the story, but if you think the devs are not to blame for any of that and want to see them stay in business it won't be helpfull to that cause at all.

Remember that Ubisoft is both the publisher and developer of SH4.

A company that releases a broken product and refuses to fix it doesn't deserve to stay in business. Customers should be actively trying to get such a company out of business because for every large company that serves its customers poorly there are always two or three companies overshadowed by such a company who want to serve the customer better, and they will hire devs who do good work (so Ubi devs won't go hungry) and hopefully they'll avoid publishers who serve the customer poorly.

here's a copy of the email i'm sending via corporate communications:

***

Dear Mr. Yves Guillemot:

I want to inform you of my dissatisfaction with the Ubisoft software title Silent Hunter 4: Wolves of the Pacific. I purchased this item as a pre-order on March 10th from the Ubisoft online store.

My complaint concerns the following issues that leave this product defective and broken:

Radar needs to be made functional.

All AI needs fixing. Too often merchant ships all come to a stop and muddle around when under attack. Destroyers guarding merchants and especially in task forces occasionally seem somewhat uninterested in firing back. The Subchaser is unable to fire its main gun at all. If you mod the Subchaser to have a second gun in a raised position where the AA gun is it will fire this gun. The Akizuki DD has a similar issue, of the four guns it has only the two guns on the raised platforms actually fire. When the boat is rammed by a destroyer (for example) the destroyer generally comes of worse and often explodes.

Units of measurement: Imperial units for ship dimensions, torpedo depth gauge, range figure in the TDC and Position Keeper, all UOM issues need to be resolved.

Repetitive patrols still get assigned.

Chronometer still doesn’t work as described in the manual. “The Chronometer bug”, this needs a quick and dirty fix, just a simple speed response in the text box when the Speed button is selected in the TDC, as occurs when the player clicks the Depth Beneath Keel button. But, importantly, the player should still have the choice of manually entering his own speed estimate in the TDC.

To solve these issues, I would like either for a patch to be released that fixes them, or to receive a refund in full for this currently defective product.

I look forward to your reply and resolution of my complaint and will allow two weeks before referring it to the appropriate consumer agency.

Thank you for your assistance and cooperation in this matter.

Sincerely,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jungman

I think simply another route. Give us the tools by Ubisoft from the devs to change the hardcoded data and such. Is that what a SDK is?:p

Let us fans with computer skill do the work. Labor of love for the game. It really is the best way than a lawsuit.

That works too. However I doubt that Ubisoft will release the SDK if there's any potential at all for another Silent Hunter game.

Quote:

However I doubt that Ubisoft will release the SDK if there's any potential at all for another Silent Hunter game.

As far as SH4 was handled, I do not see potential for this series to go on. If they are simply refusing to fix this game or just ignoring it, the possibilities for more in the series looks very remote. A refund is fine but I would much rather have the game fixed. Probably cost a whole lot less also!

You guys far far FAR overestimate your (or should I say our since I am member of this "club" too) importance.

This game got solid reviews and for all I can say sold as much as SH3. Mr Yves Guillemot is probably too busy to ever read any of your mails, and if he does so, he'll see a spreadsheet with sales results of 100s of UbiSoft games (majority of which are for consoles anyway) conclude that SH4 is one smallllllllllliiiisssshhhhhhh micro-number on that list. Then he'll throw your mail(s) into recycle bin. (That's what I would do anyway.)

Perhaps he'll decide to spend next 5 minutes Googling the net to see SH4 reviews, and he'll actually find very nice reviews, averaging above 80%! Next, he'll conculde - rightfully IMO - that he's dealing with a bunch of wackos, who for some reason don't like 80+% game and again, throw the mail(s) into Recycle bin.

Get real people.

Besides, I like the game and think it's better than SH3 in all aspects :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by OlegM

You guys far far FAR overestimate your (or should I say our since I am member of this "club" too) importance.
...

he'll throw your mail(s) into recycle bin.

undoubtedly you're correct, but let's just say that for my piece of "wacko" consumer mind at least i'd like to know that i did everything that it's in my "overestimate[d]" power to do to get this thing to where it ought to have been upon initial release.

Quote:

Besides, I like the game and think it's better than SH3 in all aspects

i agree, but that doesn't preclude the fact that it has several key flaws which arguably constitute it as being "broken"...

but who's to say that M. Guillemot doesn't take an interest in the products his comapny sells? i realize of course what a long-shot it is (especially being somewhat familiar with 'typical' French business mentality), but better to have made an effort and failed than never to have tried at all!
:88)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OlegM

Next, he'll conculde - rightfully IMO - that he's dealing with a bunch of wackos, who for some reason don't like 80+% game and again, throw the mail(s) into Recycle bin.

As long as I get the game fixed or my refund I'll be happy. I really don't care if Yves Guillemot or you think I'm a wacko. Personally I reckon that anyone defending Ubisoft's decision to stop patching SH4 is a wacko, but that's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OlegM

You guys far far FAR overestimate your (or should I say our since I am member of this "club" too) importance. <snip>

I don't understand this attitude. So you're saying doing nothing is better than doing something. If that something turns out to be futile then so be it, but at least we tried to stand up for ourselves.

Your apathy and defeatist attitude is part of the problem. As long as people such as yourself believe there's nothing we can do about it nothing will be done about it and we'll continue to be fed these lackluster games. If you want to be a doormat, fine, but get out of the way of people that don't.

There is no sense in developers making simlulations for communities that are just going to demand refunds if they can't have everything they want.

I for one do NOT want a refund, because implicit in the "refund" approach is returning the product that is being refunded, and I do not care to part with my SH4, whatever it's state.

I will encourage continued support by promising future purchases if I am satisfied, not be reversing the purchase process through refund.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

Personally I reckon that anyone defending Ubisoft's decision to stop patching SH4 is a wacko, but that's just me.

:D You're not alone.

signed in advance, if this turns into a petition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

I am not defending their decision to stop patching anything (BTW you speak of this "decision" as if it's the historic fact :hmm: ).

I am merely observing that harassing highly positioned Ubisoft executives with emails and threatening with lawsuits will only make them laugh (if EVEN THAT is not overestimating the reaction these mails will produce).

Face it. SH4 got very very solid reviews (by me, as well - 87%). Why would people like Yves get concerned? Because handful of rivet counters think the radar in the game does not work 100% correct? Come on. Why should he care, in fact why should anyone outside "our" micro-small club care?

Hell most players don't care about patches and play the game on 0% realism. Someone, I think AVGWarhawk made a good anecdotal post about that.

"We" who care about the game make like 0,0001% of Ubisoft customers, we are not in a position to threat, hell we're not even in a position to beg. That's how small we are. The one thing we CAN do is stop making laughable posts on this board.

I realise that denial is part of the process of accepting that we've been screwed, but this is ridiculous.

As for us not being in a position to threaten, we buy the games. Plus we have certain heavy-duty rights as consumers. If we don't have the ultimate power who does?