Right guys here is my report and it is good news.

My settings are as follows,

kept sim.cfg in place but made the following changes

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=0.1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=27 ;[kt]
Noise factor=1.00 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=15 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.028 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=40 ;[s]

Nothing too scientific but it was a good start. Ignore the active at the moment as it is still in very very early stages.


Anyway

My senor.dat changes are as follows

I changed min range values on both passive and active to 200

I added xtra 2-3 hundred on max range for all actives.

I tripled all passives and set hydrophone max range to 30000.

I set all crew in Happy times mission to level 4 elite.

I started mission and went to peridepth ready to turn to on-comming DD for test so I am approx 7000 mtres away.

I hit flank and after couple of seconds, I am detected by DD on far side. Ok ok this is a bit too long a distance to be detected but at least it indicates that hydrophones are infact way too nullified by either the crew rating or ranges.

This is great i thought. (my hunch seems to be right).

Anyway I continued at flank as DD was way off but closing to investigate.

As he gets closer and other DD's begin to close, I hit silent running and lose them quite easily.

Even though they are elite, it seems that they are restricted by their equipment as the DC attacks were a good 10-20 metres off line. This may be because of the 200 mtre min value.

All in all I think this is a great result but obviously needs to be further tested and it is my bed time.

If you look at the air cfg. You will notice the penalties for airbase ratings. I seriously think that this is similar to DD ratings in the fact that it just lets them use their sensors better i.e. no penalties. I do not think it makes DD do different attacks etc.

So I think this is a good start point for early war DD, then we have to get a late war DD figures set.

Guys

I am excited by this as it is the first time that i felt like I may need to approach as in sh2. I say this meaning that I will have to plan my approach rather than my shot.

So tommorow I am going to spend some considerable time testing this for hydrophone detection.

Could you please remind me of reasonable ranges for Hydrophnes in the happy times. Also could you state what speeds should be detected.

I think we may be getting somewhere here. I am not fussed about only having elite and veterern ships if this is going to work and I am sure many other players will feel the same. The equipment should be our advantage, not the ratings of the crew.

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

Please try to duplicate this and report back your results.

watch out for your speed factors Gouldjg the maximum speed of the corvetets and other smaller escorts is around 18 knots -- any higher than that and you have no dead sensor time with the fast turning covettes and that makes then a nightmare to lose if their awake--

can i suggest decreasing the speed factor and
beefing the hydrophones up by reducing the noise and waves factor-- this is one of the main hampering effects on the sensors--

as an experiment try setting the hydrophone waves and noise factors to 0.00 and see if the results are more sensitive hydrophones--

if we haven't as red is finding gotten past the randomisation of all these changes by something then i just dunno what we can do with it all

here's a thought for Col's sim cfg trick---having thought about this speed factor thing-- and my recent patrol encounter---i MUST have lost the first two DD's they don't just go away if they still have a contact on you-

the corvette must then have detected me--and as i had no speedfactor limit in the sim cfg it was impossible for it to lose contact with me--

what ever the default speedfactor is for the hyrdrophones when it doesn't find an entry in cfg file- it must be lower than the top speed of the first two DD's (a clemson and a another fully fledged DD)

so as the hydrophones are extremely uber with this set up ( and it is at least very consitent no randomisisation noticed as yet by any-one)

why not exploit the normal DD tactics and give them somthing to think about---

im going to try this

as the full hydrophone section in the sim.cfg

[Hydrophone]
Sensitivity=0.03 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Speed factor=5 ;[kt]


this will completely cripple the fast moving DD's (no matter how uber the phones are)

and force them to rely on those DD's that nearly allways sit stationary nearby whilst one DD makes attack runs--

it allso makes sense of the normal convoy escort tactic--- the front and rear DD's in a convoy frequently turn side on to the convoy and stop dead for a minute or two before straightening up and heading along in the normal position---they do this often enough for it to be very effective with the uber hydrophones---all the other fast moving DD's will be as blind as a bat-- and here's the point--including those DD's that the AI sends out to investigate the contact--blind as a bat

but if the slow dd's detect you --and they WILL--at very high distances-- there should be plenty there for the AI and the DD's to work with---it will test just how well if at all the DD's co-operate---

if this pans out it will at least be interesting because you will know that the DD's are working as a team--because ONLY the stationary and very slow moving DD's will be able to detect you-- (but they will be as uber as all heck)

sounds fun if nothing else to try :-j if it works :sunny:

Yep I think I can safely decrease speed factors now to a more suitable level.

I want the DD to be a B.I.T.C.H. to lose but not immpossible.

At the moment CB, I am feeling more inclined to set all DD to elite and veterern only due to the very reason that they are not as affected by waves or noise factors from the start unlike the rookie etc settings.

If the air.cfg penalties are anything to go bye then I suspect vast differences between DD crew ratings though I think the devs never had time to tweak and test evrything in the settings hense the extreme dumb ai at times.

I cannot understand why you had previously changed this but never got the same result.

I am also geting inclined to decrease the arc for the hydrophone but leave that till later on in testing. I have just got to make sure there are gaps in the convoys to approach.

I seem to have gotten rid of the pin point imho but I also think this can be improved by rudder tweaking on DD's should my intial tweaks prove to be out. That way they can still be deadly but not uber deadly on turning with sub.

Like I said,

Duplicate my settings and run a test if you have time tonight.

I do feel we have gained much ground on this now and should not expect the immpossible but get the gameplay done to a reasonable level.

I seriously do not think I can to go back to old settings now that I know I could make it harder to approach convoys by tweaking this way.

it's one the main issues of the thread really that folks seem to be divided into two distinct groups---those who are getting the uber pin point drops and instant death scenarios--and those who find that the DD's are absolutely useless no matter what you do to them (in long term gameplay)

im one of the ones who has useless DD's--
i've tried everything and i mean everything to try to sort this out--- notice that even using Col's cfg idea which gives the DD's insanely uber hydrophones the three DD's in my previous mision did not actually suceed in killing me---even tho my damage system is hugely more fragile than stock AND my modded DC's have a higher damage rating and radius than stock- AND all i could do was travel in a straight line beacuse my rudders had been destroyed--so i was a sitting target-

elite novice veteran made little noticible difference for me- in fact nothing made any consistent difference

it's all a bit of a joke !! sadly-- :cry:

(this is not down to my "skills" as a virtual sub captain i hasten to add lol!)

i'm going to use what i can get to get some sort of gameplay going and i think with the idea (previus post) using Col's uber hydrophone hack--i might just at least be able to have some enjoyable encounters with the DD's--i gave up on any sort of realism related gameplay months ago :oops:

making a mod for general use is going to be a nightmare because of this inconsitency-- there's something going on with the DD sensors that we just don't understand as yet--

Been following this thread, hope you guys crack it soon, the DD's are so unbeleivably stupid it defies logic.

I might try some of this when i get home. Will jungmans DC_20 mod work for this? TT's file examiner(analyzer?) i couldn't quite figure out.

Will making the hydrophones uber by zeroing them out (and probably a few other tweaks) in the sim.CFG and downing down DC blast radius be sufficient? Obviously i havent understood everything said here.

All i know for sure is, i shoudlnt have to surface, and run at flank speed in broad daylight, 5000 meters from a convoy, and then.. only THEN be noticed. Its like you have to pop the hatch with a megaphone and yell out,:

"Ello' there tommy, mind if i take a few of these T3's out"

The reply would probably be:

"oh no what, its tea time.. jolly good!"

It is not one number, it is a group, that is why you must manual hex edit them. TT tool wil not work.

Right guys

Here is a setting you can try and may enjoy. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Open up your hedgehog sim and set the following:-

Detonate_depth = 300
Depth_precision = 300

Result = random dud & premature exploding hedgehogs.

This is something I always wanted. Some detonate early and some make it to your depth. It looks and feels cool whether it is realistic or not.

The setting of DC depth precision at 50 may in fact be a little too extreme, I would set it to 35 for more stable results.

Now the question is, "should I make it 400 & 400 to ensure it can go beyond 300mtres depth?�

Although having sensitivity would give us more to work with, I think it may not be essential but stand to be corrected on this.

CB

You raise a very good theory concerning the hydro.

It would be cool to know the exact figure the DD does it attack runs on and then set the speed factor 1 or 2 digits below. I am guessing that 15 is in fact a better number though I am awaiting your test results on the extreme low number.

Guys, do we think the enemy spotting is too good or too bad? It may be ok but your thoughts are welcome.

I think I am getting a feel for all this now. (sits there and prays nothing goes wrong)

I still have not resorted to effecting the turns of all DD but this option is open should the uber pin point return in my game which by the way it seems to have gone and the 200mtre nerf seems to be working.

I am wondering if DD rudder changes will in fact make them behave slightly better.

What exactly is the historic facts concerning the DD turns?. Are they as sharp as they are shown in game or was they supposed to be less able to make such sharp turns. I thought I heard that sub should turn faster than DD but this may be wrong.



I may just have to slightly down size the late war sonar arc as I am now finding it a tad too difficult to evade late war DD's. I may not go as steep as 60 but rather a 75-80.

We still can also tweak the decoys to either last longer or make more noise if in fact the hydro works better.

All these options. :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

@Ducimus


I have a small feeling that you will soon not have to do this :up:.

Then I suspect we will all cry cos we cannot get near a convoy :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: .

I suppose it is now a matter of finding the best compromise distances here.

Finnally,

Does anyone know how to get rid of the "we have been detected message" I need it right now for testing but soon will want to get rid of it all together.

It would be cool to be approaching convoy only to spin scope and see DD, heading straight for me or suddenly hear pinging :rock: :rock: :rock: .

Thats what I want and by jolly joe, I will get it :hulk:

I totally understand that all of you guys are working very hard to find out how the AI does it's job, and I respect that...

But one thing that you should all keep in mind is how are you going to release a mod that everyone can enjoy? Yeah, you guys are still in the early stages of figuring everything out, but don't forget, ok?

The last thing we need is another never-ending thread such as the 8km visibility thread... Remember that all of your experimentation has to be able to yield some kind of feasable mod.

Ok guys? cool. :up:

What exactly are you trying to say Marhkimov :hmm:

Is it me being paranoid or is this some type of ticking off we are getting for making a long thread???????.

If it is just my way of reading your comments I do apologise but if it is a slight ticking off well I am not having none of it (always a rebel at heart: :rotfl: ).

I think it is quite clear that not everybody is going to be pleased with whatever is put out as a mod as far as sensors is concerned (probably why no one has ever attempted before). It is equally clear that we have 2 main problems to address in this thread:-

1. Pin point dropping of DD

2. Dumb DD

As far as I am concerned, I have my own approach on both issues but still would like input from Redwine and CB considering we are all (like you suggest) Just learning what does what.

And thus I am inclined to think that it may be best just to share all tests and new knowledge in one place i.e. this thread.

I personally do not care if it drags on and on to a 1000 posts as long as I am getting some results. I will continue to share mine with the others who are working on the same issues but in a different way.

I also do not care if someone else wants to tackle this as long as it is tackled which after 8 months has not been done yet. This is definitely not a one-man job yet. Just too much testing is required.


My plan is quite simple and not any big secret. I firmly sit on the fence for realism unless it takes out gameplay and gameplay unless it totally detracts from realism. So I aim to please no one except others and myself in that line of thought. The extremes of both can read our work and tweak to further their own needs.

1. Combine all latest sensors into one mod i.e. air power, DC and Hedgehog fix, Uber pin point nerf, Improved ai hydro detection, Improved sub radar, etc etc.

My line of thought is to set all DD to level field i.e. elites and then nerf sensors on equipment only and sim.cfg. This is different than CB's idea but at least we are trying 2 different methods and the best of both will probably be rolled into one.

2. Tweak out inconsistencies with the above.

3. Total Re-build of damage model so that sub gets very killed after collisions and equipment gets destroyed (I have super secret methods for this and again not everyone’s cup of tea). This mean I have to half everything including weapon values, crash speeds, Hull integrity, crew, blah blah blah.

Only after this is done, will I attempt to play this game.

All in all, I think I am trying to get a common theme going here that should at the end of the day help suit all needs.

If there is one thing that I have learned about this modding, it is the fact that not everyone is going to agree your work. So why do I continue to try????

Well I am stamping my foot and saying this.

If people want to help, then help,

If they want to get ideas, then get them,

If they want to do a better job, then do it.

If they want to just impede, then shove off, cos I am just not listening to it anymore. It ruins my style and gets in my face (a little vent there).

If they want me to leave project in better hands, then say so and I will gladly sink into the shadows and concentrate on making my own game better behaved.

Anyway back to topic,

I am struggling in seeing how min/max elevation settings look in my mind.

I think everything starts from nose of sub or centre.

So max bearing is the degrees set for each side of sub i.e. the sonar arc (by the way, I notice the type 147A has a min value of 0.06 any ideas as to why?????)

Max/min Height is also pretty obvious

Am I correct that the elevation is what makes the cone effect i.e. diameter of sensor? Or does it set the movement restrictions?

If someone can expand on their thoughts, I would really appreciate it.

On the subject of Hydrophones.

I think My triple the values works a little too well so may need to nerf these individually.

On the Subject of Actives,

What exactly is the majority opinion. I think they are not all that bad apart from the fact that 90 degree arc may be a little bit extreme.

Also looking at the picture

http://www.de220.com/Electronics/Son...20Patterns.jpg

I am suspecting that the reason they are so effective at depth and course is because their ranges are not interfered with by the sim.cfg settings.

I would go as far as to say that should we play with these figures as well as range and elevation, we could get vast differences in accuracy of DC.

I am not talking stupid changes that make the sonar ineffective. I actually need to think on this one for a while.

Hmmm, I also notice that the Q sensors are not represented in the sim.cfg. Maybe that is why they are not losing you on last few seconds.

Theories

I need to snoop at the Q rules here.

That is i was refering above, the long hexe numbre i spoupose is a group or secuence of numbers.

I has not know about how it works, then i spoupose they are a secuence of 6 numbers, and my suposition was the game take one of those 6 at time in random secuency, then i put all zeros.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000

We need TimeTraveller help on this ........

I put the original Sim.cfg, and my AI_Sensors.dat with extremelly reduced sweep arcs. All Creww rating removed by semiclons into the mission U-505.

The DDs was able to detect me with no visual or radar trigger, but they still Ubber DDs. With an active beam and sweep arc of only 3* !!! and a deaf zone in pasive of 30* at bow. (minbearing = 15)

I reduce sensivity and increase noise fatcor, and then they can notdetect me without visual or radar alert, i was able to manage to escape from them, some times succesfull, and another time escape from 4 of them, and only one was capable to maintain contact and kill me.

This last behavior may be aceptable, but is only reached with the sensors in mode as i can put flank speed near them and they do not detect me if i do not give them a radar or visual alert.



No way Gouldjg, i start up a reduction in sonar beams to reach a point where they had troubles, i finished into a 3* active beam, and they still killing me as if they have a sailor with the head into the water looking for me :rotfl:

I dont touch the decoys yet, but i found how to manage its effective surface, and life time.

But to manage its noise level is the same fact than discused here with the sensivity, is a long hexe number, may be a secuence of numbers i cant understand how to edit. :hmm: :up:

I note there ae many difrent decoys, may be due to the age of war, they has effective surfaces from 250 m2 up to 500 m2, and life times from 5 min up to 12.5 min.

We must to note in the game its bubbles surface do not reach the sea surface. In real life the bubbles must to rise up to the surface increasing the effective surface of decoy, if you was at 100m depth, and the bubbles courtain has 10m wide it gives you a 1000 m2 of effective decoy surface.

We can rise up its effective surface up to 1000 m2 for all deoys, and its life time up to 15 or 20 min for all them in an attempt to manage those deadly american ubber DDs. :hmm:

But i dont know how to increase its noise, that long hexe number is a mistery for me. I dont know if it is asecuence of numbers and what is each number into the secuence, may be a secuence of different noises along the decoy life time.

We can put all the same, but what values are used to define noise....... decibels, a numbrer from 0 to 10, a number from 0 to 1..... :hmm: :dead:

@ gouldjg,

That 'We've been detected' message you want to get rid of, it gets on my nerves too after a while when I damn well know we've been detected. So I just move the sonar man from his station, then if I need him back I'll send him there.

This Q sensor is now bugging me as I am thinking it may be seperate from cfg nerfs.

I could be wrong though but it would explain a lot.

Why is it not in the sim.cfg or is it in fact in there and tied to sonar.

Are the individual sensor types actually tied into the cfg or are they seperate?.

Can they be added to the CFG i.e. duplicate the sonar settings and rename to match. (getting wild now).

I just wonder if the 0 rule refer to cfg may work for this.

What files do I snoop at apart from sensors.dat.

I think we need timeraveller to make sence of the long hex numbers. We will maybe have more options to test.

True, if this sensor is modellated and is hidden in another place, it can explains why they blast me out of water with my active sensor with a only 3* beam.

May be the explanation for the sailor with his head into the water looking for me .......... :hmm: