SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes

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- - LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=92860)

Ok, I have finished some final changes to the UUV and added the Advanced Torpedo Physics to the ADCAP and UGST doctrines, although the database changes haven't been done yet.

For those of you who are chomping at the bit (or who think we are just messing around here :-j ) I'm going to post a corrected LWAMI Playtest One to the CADC very shortly, although keep in mind this is far from the finished product, but it clearly demonstrates all the concepts we are using.

Cheers,
David

PS Don't expect the AI to be able to use ADCAPs or UGSTs very well right now, I haven't done any work on the AI at all up to this point.

I have posted the LWAMI Playtest One WITH ATP correction to the CADC:

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=29521

From the playtest readme:

Quote:

To Install: Unzip the file into your main DW directory allowing the unzip program to overwrite all files and install to the correct directories.

This playtest should be considered a beta. It combines LWAMI 3.02 with the following changes:

ADDED IN THE ATP VERSION

UUV-The UUV sensor sensitivity has been reduced and given a hardcap of about 20nm. Also, the range of the UUV is now greatly reduced by running it at high speed, especially at 20kts. Also, and I just noticed this although it appears on my computer to be in the stock game as well, the course of the UUV is going to be off whatever is indicated in the fire control panel controls by the firing angle of the torpedo tube that fired it... I can't correct this, but I tried, although it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. :-P

UGST and ADCAP- I have tuned the wirewatch sensor and doctrines. The only ownship condition now monitored by the wire is the distance from the launchpoint of the torpedo... this is measured as a radius. I can't have it be the truerun of the submarine because the doctrine isn't getting good info from the Sim. Again, this is fine in my opinion because it allows the submarine some loiter capability. Also, the Enable distance and the wiredistance for the torpedo are now measured as the true distance run rather than the radius distance from launchpoint. AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: the Advanced Torpedo Physics have been implimented for the ADCAP and UGST, so that means they will run farther when slower and running more shallow (although the database still needs to be updated to fully take advantage of this at the extreme long/slow range/speed settings).

END OF THINGS ADDED IN THE ATP VERSION

Advanced Torpedo Control Mod for UGST and ADCAP:

Set the torpedo to fire as normal. If you don't use the wire commands, it will behave as always. The wirecontrol commands are now as follows. Note, you must wait at least a second of game time between clicks, but it is possible to hit the button several times to go through the cycle quickly. A single preenable click will preenable the torpedo if it is enabled or do nothing. A second preenable click will send the torpedo to the preset search depth. A third click will send the torpedo to the ceiling. A fourth click will send the torpedo back to launch depth. The enable button works as follows. A single enable click will set the torpedo speed to 40kts and enable the passive sensor. A second click will enable the active seeker on the torpedo and set the speed to max speed. Further clicks of the enable button have no effect on the torpedo unless it is preenabled again, and then the behavior is reset to the beginning of the enable cycle.

WireBreak Mod:
Wires are now limited in range and ownship maneovering parameters. The ADCAP has a 10nm internal wire and a 5nm wire on the launching platform. If the torpedo or ownship travel farther than those distance FROM THE LAUNCH POINT, or if the range between ownship and the torpedo exceeds that distance, the wire will break. The UGST has a 25km internal wire and a 5km wire on the launching platform. Additionally, if the opening speed between ownship and the torpedo exceeds about 60kts for the ADCAP or 55kts for the UGST, with ownship movement accounting for no more than 20kts of that calculation, the wire will break. These maneovering measurements are unintentionally fuzzy, however, it is something that occurs naturally that I was going to build in anyway, so it works nicely. :-) What this means in practical terms is that a slow running torpedo gives the launching platform much more flexibility in maneovering the ship, whereas a torpedo running at maxspeed is much more prone to a maneovering-related wirebreak. NOTE: When the wire is broken, its broken. However, sometimes the interface will momentarily display the torpedo as preenabled, but it reenables soon enough not to effect the game in any way. The only unfinished part is that you can still shutdown the torpedo even after the wire is broken... we can't take this out. However, it is very minor, in my opinion, seeing as the user would typically reload his tube after the wires are broken anyway. ;-)

Advanced UUV Mod:

The UUV is much more quiet now, and is very hard to detect without cavitation. The passive sensor has been reduced in sensitivity considerably and the active sensor has been disabled completely (mostly because its broken in DW 1.03). The UUV now has a range of 32km and max speed of 20kts, with the sensors effective up to 6-8kts, with washout above 6kts. The operation is as follows. You must be at 4kts as before, and enter the presets in the same way. After firing the weapon it will begin to feed back data immediately and move at 4kts. The speed of the UUV is controlled with the enable button and the depth is controlled with the preenable button. The preenable button has no effect on the passive sensor. One click of the enable button will stop the UUV; it can persist indefinately in this state (although I will most likely have a timer on it in the full version), a second click will speed the UUV up to 6kts. A third click of the enable button will speed the UUV up to 12kts, the max speed the UUV can travel in up to 90ft of water without cavitating. A fourth click of the enable button and the UUV will go to its max speed of 20kts. A fifth click will stop the UUV and reset the counter, although you can click the enable button twice slowly and set it to 6kts. Note the sensors are washout above 8kts and do not feed data. The preenable button depth control works as follows. A single click does nothing. A second preenable click will send the UUV to the preset search depth. A third preenable click will send the UUV to 90ft if it is in over 100ft of water or 45ft if it is in less than 100ft of water. A fourth click will send the UUV back to launch depth, and reset the cycle.

SLAM-ER and Misc. Missiles:

The SLAM-ER now works for ASuW use and will enable a radar seeker at the last waypoint if it is over water. If the last waypoint is over land, the missile will operate in Strike mode, and behave as a light TLAM. The missile has a stealth enable feature that sends it down to just above the ocean before enabling and then after enabling it rising back to its cruising altitude of 30ft. Note, the standard harpoon has also been giving this cruising altitude, and the flight profiles of various missiles have been lowered. Also, the standard SLAM has been fixed and equipped on the AI P-3 as a land attack missile because the AI can't use the SLAM-ER properly. The AI P-3 does carry the Harpoon for ASuW. The Harpoon and the SLAM-ER both have a 40 Radar PSL, which is very low.

Helicopters:

I have attempted to fixed several problems like crashing and reporting contacts at launch, as well as dragging the active dipping sonar. Please use the FFG AI MH60 as well as observe helo behavior in general. :-) Also, the MH60 no longer launches with its radar on. :-)

CIWSAttack Doctrine has been updated to give better intercept performance will allowing for appropriate missile conservation for sustained attacks.

I made a minor change to the TLAM doctrine to make sure it always explode near the target as opposed to disappearing if it overshoots.

The Random Direction Torpedo Mod has been disabled for all torpedoes to allow more predictable subroc and AI MH60 weapon delivery. The torpedoes will always go to the right upon enabling.

The Hull array of the SW has been changed to simulate what we believe to be more close to the actual sonar suite on the SW. The Hull array on the SeaWolf now represents a low frequency receiver with coverage slightly larger than the Sphere array and with the same geometry. The frequency sensitivity and and washout speed remain as before. This sonar suite should be very helpful for tracking evading targets and as well as for all situaions in the littorals where the TA cannot operate.

The Maxspeed of the MPT torpedo payload on the SS-N-27 ASW has been reduced from 55kts to 45kts. This is done partially because the torpedo probably is closer to that speed as well as to reduce the effectiveness of the SS-N-27 relative to the new torpedoes behavior.

That's it!

Please play the heck out of this, specifically looking into these things I have mentioned here and provide as much feedback as you can through the usual channels. :-)

Cheers,
David
LW

Please do not post this file to any other site, as it is NOT an official LWAMI distribution. Thank you.

Cheers,
David

:sunny: Great - this is what we've been waiting for :rock:

Entering the 'Head-bashing' zone again fearlessly :roll: .........
David you asked earlier for UUV testing on the 688i 3 and 4 tubes. Dived in Stock (Stock UUV ): The starboard (3) tube launched UUV exits and maintains + 10 deg.
When resteered its actual heading in WC always remains + 10 deg of the one selected. The port (4) tube launched UUV exits and maintains - 10 deg.
When resteered its actual heading in WC always remains - 10 deg of the one selected.

As you say, when allowed for, its no big deal. :yep:

Weird - cant understand this :-

I have two separate installations of Stock and LwAmi - each on a different partition of my hard drive.(HD A and HD B)
I loaded up a 688i (HD A) with UUVs tubes 3 & 4 for the above test in the Stock game (results above)
I then switched to LwAmi (HD B) and went to Wpns loadout to choose the UUVs and there they were.
So to check this out I swapped the UUVs for TASMs exited that HD and ran Stock again on the other HD where
I select the mission with 688i go to loadout and HECK the TASMs are there. :o

I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.
Anyone got any ideas ?

Thanks Bellman. :up:

And don't worry, as long as you don't screw up, you don't have to worry about getting your "head bashed." :lol: :P

Yeah, that's a bit of problem from the stock game... I can't compensate for it in the doctrines, so we just have to live with it.

I had just never noticed it before... ok, not a big deal. :)

Cheers,
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

Weird - cant understand this :-

I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.
Anyone got any ideas ?

Excuse me please, if it's obvious, but you do switch register keys between different install runs ? It's the only thing you didn't say...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

From the playtest readme:

UUV-The UUV sensor sensitivity has been reduced and given a hardcap of about 20nm

.

Hm do you think that tiny torpedo/UUV sensor can detect ANYTHING other than an earthquake at range of 20nm ?? Even supertanker at 20kts ?
I don't think so, or rather don't feel soo... anyone more experienced can say ?

Quote:

Also, the range of the UUV is now greatly reduced by running it at high speed, especially at 20kts.

:up:

Quote:

UGST and ADCAP- I have tuned the wirewatch sensor and doctrines. The only ownship condition now monitored by the wire is the distance from the launchpoint of the torpedo...

And I think it's very good for a test. Later of course, other conditions for launching sub maneuvers/speed can be added, but now that could confuse players only... Not too much things at once or we would have to learn completly new game... for a test :-?

Quote:

UGST, so that means they will run farther when slower and running more shallow (although the database still needs to be updated to fully take advantage of this at the extreme long/slow range/speed settings).

Come on, it's only two values in DB (weapon rng for both torps) :) At stock db range with torp range bug there is little reason in running it slow... Can result in less range. In fact you can set torp range in DB even to 50nm, doctrine will limit it correct values anyway :-)

Amizaur: Yes I have seperate registry keys as I said above -

Quote:

I cant understand this as I have separate registry settings as recommended in the dual-instal instructions.

Perhaps the 'keys' were also corrupted with the problems I had last week. I will try recreating the keys...
unless you have any other ideas ?

Quote:

Come on, it's only two values in DB (weapon rng for both torps) At stock db range with torp range bug there is little reason in running it slow... Can result in less range. In fact you can set torp range in DB even to 50nm, doctrine will limit it correct values anyway :-)

Well, yes, but I'm trying to do the changes in sensible blocks... otherwise, I'm going to go nuts! And in fact, I'm almost there anyway... :doh: :doh: :doh:

Hehe... :lol:

BTW, I tested the very short WireWatch sensor (200 yards)... and although the sim keeps the ownship tgttrack, it does not update the solution once the sensor loses contact (which is the way it SHOULD work)... so the Sim assume the tgttrack is always moving at the same speed and direction as when it was detected when the weapon was fired and then immediately lost its track, so we have to stay with the 35000m range.

Well I think I've sorted my scrambled DW installation to enable a dive or two with the new Playtest.

I gotta say the Mk2 UUV is crucial so at the outset I'm looking at its performance in tracking incoming torps
and its range ability to contribute to passive cross bearing fixes.

Second only to that is the persistence of torps to burn-through spoofing CMs and their ability
to regain the track/s post spoofing.

Dickensian * translation for our NY wizard -
1. What ranges will UUV track incoming /surface/subs ?
2. Will torps be easily spoofed ?
* Just a little sarcasm LW ! ;)

:lol: :roll: ...and please dont 'lose your marbles'.......................................... ...................just yet ! :-j

Quote:

Dickensian * translation for our NY wizard -
1. What ranges will UUV track incoming /surface/subs ?
2. Will torps be easily spoofed ?
* Just a little sarcasm LW !

Beats me... but these sorts of things can be tweaked easily once the engineering is done. Kind of like tuning a guitar. :)

Just to give you guys a status report, I have finished dividing the AI from the player torpedoes, which was no small task.

Now I have the bulk of the playable torpedo doctrines to make as well as finishing up the database changes for the AI, as well as the advanced sensor modelling.

I think I can say, confidently that we are about 65% there, with the majority of the large critical blocks being done.

Realistically, I think the torpedo mods can be done in a few days and submitted for testing, and I think LWAMI 4.00 can probably be done in about two weeks or so, and that's with a lot more changes in it than just the torpedo mods, as well as factoring in a testing period.

I'll keep you guys posted. :up:

Cheers,
David

The gremlins are determined that I dont get to dive the latest 'Playable' :damn: :hulk:

My Stock and previous LwAmi separate installs work fine but when I exchange the Database or Doctrine files for the Playtest ones this is what hapopens:

Going into the scenario which works fine as above in Playtest I enter weapons Loadout and make my selection. Click acceptance and dive but Hey Presto my loadout is not what was selected BUT what was there in the first place (ie prior to the attempted change.) Dived many times=same result :hmm:

Delete all of the files in your DW folder marked .lod as their file extension.

Wizardry works ! :yep: That fixed it LW ! :up: :rock:

Cheers David. :sunny:

I like very much what I've seen in dives so far.

Just a couple of things -
Firstly surprised that the Mk2 UUV does not report active cm contacts !
Secondly the happening originaly reported to Amizaur following his first release, still occurs, namely after a torp (Mk 48) has self-activated at RTE range I am unable, within normal wire guidance range, to regain control. But everything works fine if the torp is activated prior to RTE
ie. Speed/depth and directional control.

Standing by - with pillow on head. ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

Active CMs have a very small NL, I wouldn't expect the tuned-down UUV to pick them up.

But even when you are very, very close ....................nothing !! ?

Now where did I hear the term 'surrender monkeys' ?
The UUV Mk2 has been emasculated as an ASW offensive tool completely!
This is a big retrograde step in my eyes !!
What was/is called for are marginal changes in performance that do not fundamentaly
change the balance of the GAME ! Repeat GAME not RL -
RL has moved on way,way ahead, we know that !

Well, completely emasculated is obviously going a bit far, since I used a UUV against LW successfully just a few days ago. But even it it were, all of the "expert testimony" here on the boards seems to be in agreement that UUVs are generally not effective at detecting submarines, so the reduced performance is bringing the game more in line with reality. And that is definitely a good thing.

In terms of game balance between subs, it effects both sides, so any change in balance is negligible. In terms of balance between platform types, it can still detect noisy skimmers and torpedoes, so it is still good for ASUW and for quickly localizing air-dropped torpedoes; any change in balance is also negligible.

In terms of playability, tracking subs just got a lot harder, which is also a good thing, since triangulation is just too damn easy. I welcome the return of the importance of good TMA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

Now where did I hear the term 'surrender monkeys' ?

Grounds Keeper Willie from The Simpsons probably.

Quote:

The UUV Mk2 has been emasculated as an ASW offensive tool completely!
This is a big retrograde step in my eyes !!
What was/is called for are marginal changes in performance that do not fundamentaly
change the balance of the GAME ! Repeat GAME not RL -
RL has moved on way,way ahead, we know that !

'LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod'

LW and Ami have changed the balance of a lot of things making them closer to reality. Remember the "53cm" and "65cm" torpedoes? The Sonobuoy depths?

Either lean to use sensors the platforms have in real life or play stock, that’s what it comes down to.