View Full Version : real life question about the Virginias and Seawolfs
GrayFox
10-06-06, 05:24 PM
I have read somewhere that the Seawolf class SSN is quieter than the Virginia class.
I was wondering if it was true or not.
And if it is quieter do you think the budget cut on the new SSN class responsible for the virginia not being quieter?
SeaQueen
10-06-06, 10:50 PM
You'll never know.
I was wondering how long it'd take someone to say something like that.
For future reference, inquiries like that are viewed with suspicion, even in friendly forums like this one. Sometimes it's better to wonder at the truth than to get an answer over the open internet.
The reality? I don't know either. I haven't had any reason to know yet. The kernel of logic that resides in my soul, however, suspects that sound silencing technology has probably advanced substantially in the last decade.
The answer to that question is always more complicated than not, because it also includes variables such as operating lineups and speed. I'm willing to bet that a 688 at AA1 is quieter than a Collins at flank.
ASWnut101
10-07-06, 10:08 AM
I remember watching a show about this subject and it said that the Virginia would be quieter when running very slow, but the Seawolf would still have a higher Tactical Speed.....
SeaQueen
10-07-06, 10:08 AM
Sometimes it's better to wonder at the truth than to get an answer over the open internet.
I always think it's more fun to watch people try to answer them and debate it. They're often wrong, but it's always fun to see the way these things are arrived at.
The answer to that question is always more complicated than not, because it also includes variables such as operating lineups and speed. I'm willing to bet that a 688 at AA1 is quieter than a Collins at flank.
It also depends on the frequency of the sounds and the environment in which the submarine is operating. One submarine might have a higher SL at one particular frequency but if that one is lower than the cutoff frequency of the duct in which the two submarines we're comparing are in, then the one's noise might just get soaked up into the ocean, while the other suffers minimal transmission loss for tens of miles.
Sometimes I think people don't always understand the nuances of what they're really asking. Comparing sonar performance can be like comparing fine wines...
Comparing sonar performance can be like comparing fine wines...
Great image. It's an apt comparison. Usually the people doing the comparing (be it wine or sonar) have no idea what they're talking about. :|\\
I prefer to tell you up front: I don't know. Sonar is not my thing, and sound transmission is not my area of expertise or interest. What I am interested in is relative motion and the tactical application of all of the science behind sonar (ie what is my torpedo going to acquire and why).
SeaQueen
10-08-06, 11:53 AM
I prefer to tell you up front: I don't know. Sonar is not my thing, and sound transmission is not my area of expertise or interest. What I am interested in is relative motion and the tactical application of all of the science behind sonar (ie what is my torpedo going to acquire and why).
I think it's all fascinating. It's like... ASW is a science of reasoning in the face of uncertainty. It's slow... it's intellectual... it's mathematically intensive...
I wish I could have been involved in things during the Cold War. Some of the old analysts at work have some great stories. It seems like there's nothing so grand going on in the ocean these days, not like it was.
Kapitan
10-08-06, 02:22 PM
Seawolf is the expencive unit, the virginia isnt id say yes the sea wolf is quieter, i think you just got to be patient btw have you got a spare 50 years to wait to find the answer?
No, Virginia is expensive as hell.
You want the truth? Seawolf class submarines (BSY-2) are updating to Virginia (BYG-1/BQQ-10 ARCI TI-04) fire control and sonar processing. Figure it out.
What I heard is that Virginia was supposed to be cheaper, but it finished on like 80-90% of the price of SW. On the other hand, it is modular, easy to upgrade, has some revolutional concepts (like non-penetrating masts). It has everything to stay in service for a long time.
Kapitan
10-09-06, 07:44 AM
And it best be worth every penny too !
SeaQueen
10-09-06, 07:57 AM
What I heard is that Virginia was supposed to be cheaper, but it finished on like 80-90% of the price of SW. On the other hand, it is modular, easy to upgrade, has some revolutional concepts (like non-penetrating masts). It has everything to stay in service for a long time.
Part of what makes submarines so expensive these days is that the force requirements are so low, so only low production rates are required to meet the force level requirements. Low rate production is always more expensive per unit than cracking out a bazillion of submarines, but that's not what the Navy needs.
I think the real loser program in the defense budget right now is the F-22. I know the Airforce is willing to sell it's soul to build the thing, but it's SO expensive. Compared to the JSF (which isn't cheap at all), it isn't clear at all that they'll be able to really justify it. I think the Airforce is going to be the big loser in all future defense budgets until someone manages to kill that program.
SUBMAN1
10-09-06, 03:50 PM
No, Virginia is expensive as hell.
You want the truth? Seawolf class submarines (BSY-2) are updating to Virginia (BYG-1/BQQ-10 ARCI TI-04) fire control and sonar processing. Figure it out.
To build a Seawolf is 3 times the cost of a Virginia (The very reason it was cancelled in favor of building the cheaper Virginia), so figure it out. :p Never quite understood how the Seawolf project was cancelled due to cost before building the first boat, yet the Navy still produced 3 boats that aren't supposed to be funded for.
Doesn't surprise me that the Navy is updating its best boat to the latest Sonar though. Sonar has probably advanced significantly in the last 10 years. Seawolf is modular and this shows that, but Virginia has it beat in that area.
-S
3 times ? That's pretty different of what I hear. Anybody knows ?
SUBMAN1
10-09-06, 04:50 PM
3 times ? That's pretty different of what I hear. Anybody knows ?
The Virginia's were 1 Bil in like 1995 $. The Seawolf were cancelled due to being $3 Bil.
3 times ? That's pretty different of what I hear. Anybody knows ?
The Virginia's were 1 Bil in like 1995 $. The Seawolf were cancelled due to being $3 Bil.
What I've just found on google is it is $2.3 billion now. 1995 .. hell that's previous millenium man ..
GrayFox
10-09-06, 07:32 PM
No, Virginia is expensive as hell.
You want the truth? Seawolf class submarines (BSY-2) are updating to Virginia (BYG-1/BQQ-10 ARCI TI-04) fire control and sonar processing. Figure it out.
Doesnt have anything to do with the propulsor or the noise signature, its just spending money to make the seawolf an even better killer.
As for the cost of the seawolfs, it doesnt include the USS Jimmy Carter, which was modified for special operations, whic prolly bumped the cost of the ship higher than that of the other 2 seawolfs and is prolly the most costly sub the US has.
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