GW mod and the weapon power.

[VON_CAPO]

I had played many times with this mod and I have to say: it is GREAT!!!

But, it has a awfull side, and it is its low power weapons. :nope:

Let me demonstrate this with a graphic example:

Mission: Gibraltar
Boat: type VII
Year: 1941

As you can see I torpedoed this destroyer once amidship at 17:20 hours, but without visible results, no fire on board and no list.

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/594/sh3img2102006111929687du9.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006111929687du9.jpg)

The DD followed her path at the same speed and direction, so I decided to surface and to finish my job with artillery.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3434/sh3img210200611205062oy2.th.jpg (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img210200611205062oy2.jpg) http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8144/sh3img2102006112638937xu7.th.jpg (http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006112638937xu7.jpg) http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/9140/sh3img2102006113250250ne8.th.jpg (http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006113250250ne8.jpg)

As you can see, a reinforcement appeared on the horizon at the right.

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9296/sh3img2102006113415171lq9.th.jpg (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006113415171lq9.jpg)

After more than 15 impacts, and my time on the surface almost exhausted, because a second reinforment appeared on the left.
I ran into the DD, a desperate action for desperate times. :roll:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2817/sh3img2102006113625859py9.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006113625859py9.jpg) http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/1836/sh3img2102006113726515uc9.th.jpg (http://img416.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006113726515uc9.jpg) http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9894/sh3img2102006113839515zz7.th.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img2102006113839515zz7.jpg)

As you can see, I dived because the reinforcement were getting closer.
My prey was still moving, and I never knew if she was sunk or not.

http://img351.imageshack.us/img351/9251/sh3img210200611408812pf2.th.jpg (http://img351.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh3img210200611408812pf2.jpg)

Final thoughts:
I need to find out a way to increase the weapon power by 50%, or may be 100%.
DD are basically "cans", they are not armored at all.
It is the only way to fix this unrealistic behavior. :stare:
Realism, YES. A handicapped boat, NO.

[Warmonger]

Are there supposed to be pictures? If so I can't see them...

Anyway, on my last patrol it was Norway invasion time and all I could find was destroyers or destroyer groups so I attacked them (what I normally not do). I sunk 2 tribals with 1 torpedo each, but had to wait for quite some time until they went down.

[HunterICX]

:-?

1. IF you have a clear shot at an Escort/DD try so, if hit and sinks ok, if it doesnt get your sub deeper and leave it alone, DD's are not worth the trouble

2. NEVER surface when other DD's are comming or around. this is going get urself killed.

3. Deck gun, its not as the stock anymore, the damage model doesnt allow you to just shoot blind at it so it would blow up in hollywood style, shoot at the Water line to get it down.

4. Ramming in GW is a suicidal move , this damage the Hull so bad that you are screwed when you need to crash dive.

also knowing the damage model doesnt always result in a direct sinking, sometimes you have to wait, I have hitted a DD like that, it continued like nothing happen but I saw his hull dissapearing under water and at the sudden her butt sinks and there she goes. you have to be patient sometimes.

Greetz HunterICX

if you want to have more firepower
remove TGW mod and continue with stock sh3.
because I cant think of any tweak that bumps up the firepower

[Respenus]

:-?
you have to be patient sometimes.
PATIENT? Patient you say? Good. I sent 3 fish into a merchant and had to wait for a long time for the thing to sink. Then I shot a tramp steamer with 2 fish (3rd one was a dud) and sent A LOT of shells into her at 512X TC to make her sink.

Grrr! :damn:

Oh, and VON_CAPO, you can use the childrens GW update someone make, do a search, you'll find it, the increases the guns power and some other tweeks that will make it more fun, but less realistic.

[bigboywooly]

Are you aiming at different compartments for torpedos and deck gun
Also aim below waterline for DG

I have rarely had to wait anywhere near that long for a sinking

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, you have to be patient. Hollywood has drilled into everyone "one hit wonders" no matter who the action star is. Unfortunate, in reality, not all ships blew up in to a million piece and sunk under 1 second. Often ships made port on fire and heavily damaged. Yes, destroyers are tin cans but the also just did not blow up on one impact. Also, these ships are compartmentalized so you need hit a few of the compartments to get her to go down. Sometimes you are lucky and you will get that one hit. Often in reality all torpedos were sent so to better the chance of a hit and a better chance of two hitting to get the job done.

I hit a cruiser in the stern, it kept going and sunk outside my field of view....I got no credit for the kill. She final sunk by the stern after 45 minutes. So, the GW mod makes ships sink realistically. The mod was not designed to be like an arcade game. Submarines are patient, suprise war machines. Waiting 45 minutes to see a ship go down is chicken feed after taking 24 hours to get yourself into position to sink the thing!.

[SteamWake]

From what I understand there will be some adjustments to the damage models in the next version of GW.

Of course this is hearsay and someone please correct me if Im wrong.

[VON_CAPO]

:-?
you have to be patient sometimes.
PATIENT? Patient you say? Good. I sent 3 fish into a merchant and had to wait for a long time for the thing to sink. Then I shot a tramp steamer with 2 fish (3rd one was a dud) and sent A LOT of shells into her at 512X TC to make her sink.

Grrr! :damn:

Oh, and VON_CAPO, you can use the childrens GW update someone make, do a search, you'll find it, the increases the guns power and some other tweeks that will make it more fun, but less realistic. Yes, I will do that search right now. Thank you. :up:

About the "patience":
It is very understandable to wait for the sinking. :yep:
But it is not, when you have a handicapped torpedo.

A real G7 torpedo has 280 kilograms of hexogen, which is absolutely able to tear apart a battleship peel (very, very thick indeed).

With GW mod you need to use as many torpedoes against a merchant as a battleship. :o:o:o
This is outrageous. :stare:

Take a look a some historical facts about the most successful patrols:
From: ---> http://uboat.net/ops/top_patrols.htm

Taking in count that a type VII u-boat carry 14 torpedoes and a type IX carry 23; do the math.
Is it possible with GW mod achieve those numbers (showed in the link above mentioned)?
My personal answer is: - I don't think so!

Most of us are experts commanders, we can take risks that a real commander would never take because this is a game, and we are reborn over and over again, to begin again.
So, for us, is a lot easier to reach those numbers.

So, I insist. I will find out the way to increase the power of my weapons to get a realistic balance.

To finish this complain... a pic.
A boat showing multiple victories, of course, she never had to use GW mod.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2050/3ob4in7.th.png (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3ob4in7.png)

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, sir, I recommend you scrap the mod and play the game with one hit wonders. I believe the numbers are against you for the damage model in the game. More like it than dislike it. I would agree that the cannon should be a bit stronger and the small tramp steamer is indestructable. Therefore, I bypass those and play with the cannon if I have time. No one is forcing you to use it and you could not have beaten the price you paid for it. Perhaps some constructive criticism would be in order and not pictures with a sly remark on the GW mod. Again, no one forced it upon you.:nope: Yesterday I was playing multiplayer and knocked out the tramp steamer with one torpedo. Other times you just have to EARN your kill!

[Ducimus]

The core of the contention here, sounds like DTB's damage model that GW11a uses. Its the same damage model that the first version of NYGM TW 1.x uses. I won't offer an opinion on it. I will say this much however, this damage model makes it impossible to sink a ship except by flooding. The flooding times are often really long. The idea i think is to encourage you to spend more ordinance to get a ship to sink faster, which ultimatly will reduce your career tonnage to some semblance of historical levels. Unfortunatly it does this a little too well at times.

Bottom line is if you use the current version GW, or TW, your going to have to learn how to work with this damage model or a varation of it.

[SteamWake]

The core of the contention here, sounds like DTB's damage model that GW11a uses. Its the same damage model that the first version of NYGM TW 1.x uses. I won't offer an opinion on it. I will say this much however, this damage model makes it impossible to sink a ship except by flooding. The flooding times are often really long. The idea i think is to encourage you to spend more ordinance to get a ship to sink faster, which ultimatly will reduce your career tonnage to some semblance of historical levels. Unfortunatly it does this a little too well at times.

Bottom line is if you use the current version GW, or TW, your going to have to learn how to work with this damage model or a varation of it.

I have had a few "lucky" shots where the ship busted in two and went down fast. Large Cargo I belive.

[Ducimus]

Yes, you'll have those if it hits a critical point. Im acutally surpised that DTB didn't try and turn those off, although i think another of his main themes was a sense of randomness, and leaving critical hits in would do that.

Personnaly i stopped using the damage model after i found it put a big damper on one of my favorite past times. Harbor raiding :P

[VON_CAPO]

Personnaly i stopped using the damage model after i found it put a big damper on one of my favorite past times. Harbor raiding :P How did you do that?

[CWorth]

With GW mod you need to use as many torpedoes against a merchant as a battleship. :o:o:o
This is outrageous. :stare:




I have no problems sinking ships in the GW mod.These are my results in numbers of torpedoes it takes for me to sink a ship.All these figures depend on whether or not I get a hit on a critical area or if I get a bad hit.

Destroyers..1-2 torpedos
Battleships...2-4 torpedos
Carriers..2-4 torpedos

Small Merchants...1-2 torpedos
Medium Merchants...1-3 torpedos
Large Merchants...2-3 torpedos

Heck in a Type II with only 6 torpedos I come back to port regularly with 3-4 ships sunk.

[Sailor Steve]

About the "patience":
It is very understandable to wait for the sinking. :yep:
But it is not, when you have a handicapped torpedo.

A real G7 torpedo has 280 kilograms of hexogen, which is absolutely able to tear apart a battleship peel (very, very thick indeed).
Actually, a battleship's skin isn't normally any thicker that any other ship's, that is 1/2 to 1 inch. The armor belt is a lot thicker, but torpedoes are meant to go underneath it, and you are right, the armor wouldn't be much protection against a large underwater blast anyway. On the other hand, battleships in WWII were protected by a special system designed to defeat torpedoes, and on the whole it worked pretty well. Yamato took something like 17 torpedoes and 20 bombs to put down.

With GW mod you need to use as many torpedoes against a merchant as a battleship. :o:o:o
This is outrageous. :stare:
Not really, but sometimes it seems that way. I've had big merchants go down fairly quickly with that damage system, but I've had a lot more take more than I thought was reasonable.

Take a look a some historical facts about the most successful patrols:
From: ---> http://uboat.net/ops/top_patrols.htm

Taking in count that a type VII u-boat carry 14 torpedoes and a type IX carry 23; do the math.
Is it possible with GW mod achieve those numbers (showed in the link above mentioned)?
My personal answer is: - I don't think so!
Here I have to ask: are you quoting facts because you are interested in realism, or because in this case they agree with you? By that I mean, will you also argue for a possibility of equalling the least successful patrols? Would you be happy if you had an entire career without sinking one ship? It happened.

On the whole, I agree, but it has also been said that GWX will be trying something completely different. I don't know if it will be better, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Oh, one more thing: you don't need to increase the weapon's power to get the results you want; you just have to replace all the ship files from the 'Sea' and 'Roster' folders with the original stock ones. Then your targets will sink by hit points again.

[VON_CAPO]

Oh, one more thing: you don't need to increase the weapon's power to get the results you want; you just have to replace all the ship files from the 'Sea' and 'Roster' folders with the original stock ones. Then your targets will sink by hit points again. Excellent. Thank you very much Sailor Steve.
I will try this solution. :rock::rock::rock::rock::rock:

By the way, do not get me wrong.

I consider GW mod a superb work.
The passion that Kpt. Lehmann and GW team had put is wonderful.

As I said, and it has been written in the main tittle of this thread, my complain is about the weapons and their effects: frustrating stuff indeed. :damn::damn::damn:

I understand that many GW followers use this mod in a unconditional way.
Because they were happy with the old RUB mod (Real U Boat), it is natural to them accept this one without grumble.
This kind of gamers consider that a new level of difficulty is "more realistic". I disagree.
Now, IMHO, it is so realistic, that it is not realistic at all.

In my particular case I scrapped RUB without any doubt, because I had many alternatives.

Today, it is different. GW had integrated so many improvements, and corrected so many bugs, that it is not disposable at all.

I just want a easy way to use this mod as it was "Unreal RUB". :yep::yep::yep:

[Ducimus]

Personnaly i stopped using the damage model after i found it put a big damper on one of my favorite past times. Harbor raiding :P How did you do that?

In modding terms, its simple to get rid of the damage mod (just get rid of the zon files in the sea folder and the zones.cfg in the mods directory before installing), but the reality is its alot of work. Many files inter relate in sublte ways, and doing JUST that, may result in wierd side effects. But the zon files and the zones.cfg is the core of DTB's damage mod. Infact off the top of my head i can tell you that you can't get rid of any files on any NEW ships that are added. Only the old ones. So you'll have stock ships mixed with harder to sink ships, and the thing turns into a hodgepodge.

If you really want to get away from it cleanly, then id go back and use Unified Campaign. That is acutaly what ive been working on/with, and it's what the GW11a Campaign is founded upon, (only with alot of extra's done). Im compiling a "supermod" of my own based on UC, (essentually a collection of mods ive tweaked) that basically just patch's up/enhances the vanilla game tweaked to my taste :roll: . It's not a totaly new experience like GW and im not releasing that for at least another week or two. To be honest im hoping GWX releases first.

[Hueywolf123]

Seems like (and I'm not being rude, so please, no offence intended) but you can be lucky, it just takes patience - extreme patience.
I have had terrible luck, but then good fortune also. I have taken out three blackswans recently, two with one fish each, and one with two fish. I also scored a large cargo with one fish.
You need an experienced and qualified crew, to be in the exactly correct position, to manualy aim so as to hit in just the right spot.
Please note, no, on all occasions where the warships were involved, the weather was extremely bad, causing me to play catch up more than once in order to correctly aim

[Capt.Crackerjack]

:roll: VON CAPO, with all due respect, you need to check your math, and refer to the torps required estimates as listed above by CWorth, which agree with my own experience. Using an average of 2 torps per merchant ship (finishing each off with 15-30 DG HE shells, spaced along the waterline, after the escorts leave the area) you will find that the following are typical 1940-42 good patrol results using standard GW1.1a:

Type VII: 14torps/2torps per ship = 7 merchants (your info lists 8 as record)
Type IX: 23torps/2torps per ship = 11.5 merchants (your info lists 14 as record)

:know: These results fit nicely with the historical records you reference and reflect my own patrol experiences. When executed properly, you should be able to pull down 2 (VII) or 3 (IX) merchant ships on every convoy attack set-up run, finishing them as stated above. With skill and some luck, you can often whack the same convoy 2-3 times over a 24-48 hour period, expending all torpedoes! Using this method, I once killed 13 merchants on a single IX blue water patrol with GW1.1a, although 9-11 is more normal. I believe you could even improve that score by harbour raiding.

If this level of realism does not suit you, then as others have stated, you may be better suited to use the children's arcade version of GW, or just the stock SHIII. Better yet, perhaps you could try shooting fish in a barrel? You might really enjoy that!:yep:

[Ducimus]

If this level of realism does not suit you, then as others have stated, you may be better suited to use the children's arcade version of GW, or just the stock SHIII. Better yet, perhaps you could try shooting fish in a barrel? You might really enjoy that!:yep:

That smacks of a personal jab that's uncalled for.

[NeonSamurai]

Personaly i found it easier just to increase the torpedo and shell damage and radius effects untill i was getting results that were in my view more realistic.

Unfortunatly with that damage model, some times it is quite realistic, and sometimes it is utterly absurd, especialy with certain ships.

Also i will add that the reports on how many torpedoes it took to sink a particular ship often varry wildly to the actual truth (based on assessing the damage to the ship by diving it). duds and premature explosions being the 2 big ones that can throw it off, especialy as alot of sub and uboat skippers didnt actualy see the shots hit, only heard explosions.

[Ducimus]

Just FYI, if you take the stock damage model, lower the torpedo damage to like 25 to 30, or 30 to 35, then increase the radius to 7 min, 7 max, ive found that two contact hits, 95% of the time will not result in a sinking. Two magnetic hits under the keel resulted in a sinking 98% of the time. Exception being small ships like a tramp steamer. 1 contact hit did nicely.

[VON_CAPO]

If you really want to get away from it cleanly, then id go back and use Unified Campaign. That is acutaly what ive been working on/with, and it's what the GW11a Campaign is founded upon, (only with alot of extra's done). Im compiling a "supermod" of my own based on UC, (essentually a collection of mods ive tweaked) that basically just patch's up/enhances the vanilla game tweaked to my taste :roll: . It's not a totaly new experience like GW and im not releasing that for at least another week or two. To be honest im hoping GWX releases first. I am looking forward to it.
Just FYI, if you take the stock damage model, lower the torpedo damage to like 25 to 30, or 30 to 35, then increase the radius to 7 min, 7 max, ive found that two contact hits, 95% of the time will not result in a sinking. Two magnetic hits under the keel resulted in a sinking 98% of the time. Exception being small ships like a tramp steamer. 1 contact hit did nicely. Very good tip.

Thank you very much, Ducimus.
I appreciate it. :up::up::up::up::up:

[NIGHTFIGHTER]

Ive found GW very interesting as far as weapons are concerned, nothing is a dead sert. My last mission i came across my first convoy, i was so gob smacked and was sight seeing i didn't see the escort untill the shells were explodeing around the conning tower, and like a heat seaking missile the git blew me out of the water.
Apon re-birth (thankfully id saved before he attacked) i knew what to expect, and when he was still some distance away i used the deck gun, firing with more hope of causing damage i fired my first round, and was amazed when the whole boat leaped out of the water and broke in two, Now either this was HMS Hood or one hell of a luky shot, any other time i can lay a torp and 50+ shell into a freighter only to have it sail away into the distance.....it is the uncertanty that makes the game enjoyable and yet sometimes very frustrating.:damn: