Worry about China

[The Avon Lady]

Beijing secretly fires lasers to disable US satellites (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/09/26/wchina226.xml)

It's not just the new laser toy. Read the entire article

[snowsub]

Very interesting reading :hmm:

Although it's in china's interest to keep it's national issues secret, though the sabotage is a different matter.
I'm also wondering how indepth and true to the fact the info is.

[Skybird]

Why expecting the Chinese to act intentionally to their strategical disadvantage? They have the tool to deny their major rival the ability to spy on them, so they use it to deny him that advantage. Who would not do that? After all, the act of spying, no matter how understandable it is for the spy's side, is an aggressive act. I'm sure the US does similiar things in return. during the early nineties circles in the pentagon tried to establish a doctrine of thinking that space is theirs and the right to use of it for strategic and military purposes should be denied to others. It seems, China disagrees on that landtaking policy. :)

But we should attack China preemptively. They are said to already have nukes, you know, and they are no American democracy. Dangerous, dangerous...

What I really would like to know is (but nobody will tell me) how sub operations close to China have been going over the last years. I am sure there are already many stories happening that we even do not want to know.

[The Noob]

I can understand why they want to block US spy sat's.

Cold war, round 2: China vs. USA!

[kiwi_2005]

What I really would like to know is (but nobody will tell me) how sub operations close to China have been going over the last years. I am sure there are already many stories happening that we even do not want to know.

Oh thats easy. Just read a few Patrick Robinson or Tom Clancy Novels, they should keep ya uptodate with the silent war going on under the seas with US and China:arrgh!:

On another note IMHO i think and i hope im dead wrong, but we humans are due for another major war soon. Its in our blood to fight.:hmm:

[sonar732]

What I really would like to know is (but nobody will tell me) how sub operations close to China have been going over the last years. I am sure there are already many stories happening that we even do not want to know.

I'm actually surprised that you are asking this question Sky. It doesn't take a military analyst to know that we are conducting intel ops to figure out what they are up too. It's not just sub ops either, remember 01 April 2001? A EP-3 collied with a Chinese intercept plane while conducting intel ops.

[Skybird]

I didn't ask if intel ops are going on. we all can safely assume that they are being carried out. If they are always going smooth and withoiut confrontation is something different - I expressed my concern that in that field things maybe already are going far tougher than the public can imagine.

[SUBMAN1]

What I see here is not AMerican reluctance to do anything, but big business pressure to make the US back off. You know how much $$$ American companies have invested in China? To cause a conflict would be to bankrupt many of them. We are walking a fine line over here.

-S

[Perilscope]

Although the Chinese tests do not aim to destroy American satellites, the laser attacks could make them useless over Chinese territory.
China blind the satellite when hovering over their territory, sounds legitimate. :hmm:

[SkvyWvr]

On another note IMHO i think and i hope im dead wrong, but we humans are due for another major war soon. Its in our blood to fight.:hmm:

That is soooo true. Man is it's own predator.

[Oberon]

Haven't the Russkies got this tech too? Or did they just use the space based satkillers?

It's no surprise that China has high military ambitions, it's main goal is to become a superpower that is capable of taking on, and bloodying the US, especially in regards to Taiwan, and the Spratly Isles.

[STEED]

I here China is doing well in pair part body organs they shoot there criminals and extract their organs for surgery and us Brits are flocking to China for new livers, kidneys, hearts and lungs.

I heard this on the radio.

[TteFAboB]

No worries. It's a spy game.

[Perilscope]

It's no surprise that China has high military ambitions, it's main goal is to become a superpower that is capable of taking on, and bloodying the US, especially in regards to Taiwan, and the Spratly Isles.China is a tough nut, and I hate their ambition to recuperate Taiwan, it shows that they are not happy being as powerful as they are, they want more, they are no better than any other.

Moreover, since we live freely and have better ideology in general for our people, it's they the bad boys, I will never think otherwise. ;)

No worries. It's a spy game.
That is what people probably said just before 1914 and 1939 ;)

[Yahoshua]

Business is war.

[tycho102]

Avon Lady, why don't you include your opinion along with your thread?

Anyway, I'll weigh in on China. In the land of China, the pacifists are beaten and executed. There is no Berkeley. There is no San Franscisco. There are no gay rights, and there's no debate over gays serving in the military or gays getting married. By California standards, a Chinese liberal would be a baby-killing warmonger.

So, they're blinding out sats. It is unfortunate for us, and I think it is highly likely that they will find out in the future it was to their misfortune, if they will sell this ability to Iran and North Korea. Firing a megawatt laser through the atmosphere and keeping a .0001 degree dispersion-arc isn't a small feat. Not to even begin figuring out how to continuously track a target well enough for the beam to perform it's function.

If there is truely any country that has the willpower to stand against the muslims, it's going to be China. But I honestly think that, once their economy and infrastructure advances to the level of America's, they will find they have to fight all the battles we're fighting -- if they want China to keep growing "larger".



If they sell this laser system, it's going to come back around to haunt them. Of that much I am certain.

Also, War is Deception. So Business is Deception. Which sounds about right for America. ;)

[Skybird]

Moreover, since we live freely and have better ideology in general for our people, it's they the bad boys, I will never think otherwise. ;)

Strange. They have four times as many people as there are Americans on this globe, and the better part of these think the same like you - just reversed... ;)

[Perilscope]

Strange. They have four times as many people as there are Americans on this globe, and the better part of these think the same like you - just reversed... ;)Them they are forced to think that way, us we think freely. :D ;)

[The Noob]

Strange. They have four times as many people as there are Americans on this globe, and the better part of these think the same like you - just reversed... ;)Them they are forced to think that way, us we think freely. :D ;)

You think you think freely...but your wrong.

The chinese will fight to death if a China v.s. US war will ever start. If the US don't uses nukes, they will loose. And if they do, the world will loose.

[SkvyWvr]

Strange. They have four times as many people as there are Americans on this globe, and the better part of these think the same like you - just reversed... ;)Them they are forced to think that way, us we think freely. :D ;)

You think you think freely...but your wrong.

The chinese will fight to death if a China v.s. US war will ever start. If the US don't uses nukes, they will loose. And if they do, the world will loose.

It will come to Nukes. They will have to use them.

[Perilscope]

You think you think freely...but your wrong.
Oh yes I can, point.

[Skybird]

Strange. They have four times as many people as there are Americans on this globe, and the better part of these think the same like you - just reversed... ;)Them they are forced to think that way, us we think freely. :D ;)

You think you think freely...but your wrong.

The chinese will fight to death if a China v.s. US war will ever start. If the US don't uses nukes, they will loose. And if they do, the world will loose.

It will come to Nukes. They will have to use them.

You mean - no thuna anymore...? :(

[Camaero]

The great thing about nukes is that it prevents all wars against two countries that have them. The bad thing is that if the war actually starts, it's the end for us all.:nope:

[The Noob]

The great thing about nukes is that it prevents all wars against two countries that have them. The bad thing is that if the war actually starts, it's the end for us all.:nope:

Thats why i'm anti-nukes. I don't really care in a Chinese vs. US war as long as my country keeps out of it, but when it comes to nukes, were all get fried. :nope:

[Camaero]

The great thing about nukes is that it prevents all wars against two countries that have them. The bad thing is that if the war actually starts, it's the end for us all.:nope:

Thats why i'm anti-nukes. I don't really care in a Chinese vs. US war as long as my country keeps out of it, but when it comes to nukes, were all get fried. :nope:

If my country is going down then we are going to take everyone else out with us!:arrgh!:

[ASWnut101]

******* Yeah man!

[The Noob]

If my country is going down then we are going to take everyone else out with us!:arrgh!:

I don't wanna die cause you people mess up. Thats a PRIMITIVE attitude!

I can't take this STUPID IDIOTIC BLATHER!!!!! :damn:

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE EVERYONE WITH YOU!!

Killing all non-americans just because you can't STFU about non-western governements...:nope:

They don't want you to have an eye on them. No nation wants. So let them!

Sorry for the rant, but such sentences make me going nuts over here...;)

******* Yeah man!

******* No Man!!

[ASWnut101]

:cool:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Business is war.

The inverse is also certainly true.

PD

[Yahoshua]

Yes, very much so.

[Perilscope]

Business is war.

The inverse is also certainly true.

PD

Quote from: Marcus Tullius Cicero
The sinews of war are infinite money

[PeriscopeDepth]

I've been playing the Total War series lately, so I have seen that quote quite a few times recently. :)

PD

[HunterICX]

:stare: So if China fight till the end....still no reason to nuke the sh!t out of it.

Nukes are for wimps and cowards. be a man and fight like one!
accept loss if it turns so.

and btw why do we, the people have to fight , why dont we put like for example

Bush and Saddam into a boxing ring and let them fight because they wanted to.

[mog]

China grows less and less communist every day. Their eastern cities are already virtually indistinguishable from any other capitalist Asian city, and full of Armani retailers and Lexus dealerships.

[The Noob]

:stare: So if China fight till the end....still no reason to nuke the sh!t out of it.

Nukes are for wimps and cowards. be a man and fight like one!
accept loss if it turns so.

Yes. Thats fighting with Honor *Gets Klingonic*.

[ASWnut101]

:stare: So if China fight till the end....still no reason to nuke the sh!t out of it.

Nukes are for wimps and cowards. be a man and fight like one!
accept loss if it turns so.

and btw why do we, the people have to fight , why dont we put like for example

Bush and Saddam into a boxing ring and let them fight because they wanted to.

Because in America, that would be considered "politically incorrect"

[Yahoshua]

I remember a saying that the cold-war was not won with bullets, nor bombs, nor sabotage, nor rebellion.

No, the cold-war was won........with naught but a McDonalds restaurant:huh: .

[Perilscope]

No, the cold-war was won........with naught but a McDonalds restaurant:huh: .
As cynical it might be, it's pretty much a fact. :D

Does this mean China is not happy with the McDonalds already there, we should open more. :lol:

[zeropoint]

No, the cold-war was won........with naught but a McDonalds restaurant:huh: . As cynical it might be, it's pretty much a fact. :D

Does this mean China is not happy with the McDonalds already there, we should open more. :lol:

Capitalism is the world’s pacifier. Going to war with your trading partners is a sure way to trash your country’s economy. The more capitalist China becomes, the less of a threat they are. At the same time, they gain economic ground on the United States; And their military potential is a potent fulcrum of leverage.

Still, it’s a good thing that an ocean separates you people.

[Perilscope]

Still, it’s a good thing that an ocean separates you people.
As far as I know, if China and the USA fights, you and I will be in there too, guaranteed :yep:
Anyway, that is what I want to believe.:D

[CB..]

the irony is that China AFAIK has been busy buying up a huge proportion of Americas national debt...which has got to be making life "complicated" all round..not to mention all the day to day white goods manufacturing which we have all exported to China..and probably can't afford to bring back home again... no what they want to arrange is an Al Quaeda terrorist strike on the scale of 9/11 on China...to encourage the Chinise goverment to take sides in the "war against terror"...oh you know the usual pointless shinanigens the enemy of my enemy is my friend...which basicaly sums up the USA's foriegn policy since the year dot...and probably every-one else as well..damn it it gets tediuos

[sonar732]

On another note IMHO i think and i hope im dead wrong, but we humans are due for another major war soon. Its in our blood to fight.:hmm:

I think Iran will be before China unless Taiwan ticks them off somehow and they launch a full scale attack before the newest nuc carrier gets homeported in Japan.

[Perilscope]

I think Iran will be before China unless Taiwan ticks them off somehow and they launch a full scale attack before the newest nuc carrier gets homeported in Japan.
Taiwan is doing everything possible not to tick off China, under strict demand from the USA. :yep:

[Immacolata]

Let us presuppose that China had numerous spy sattelites orbiting Earth and often over american soil. Let us also imagine that the US government had at their disposal powerul laser guns that could blind spy sattelites. Would you hesitate to use them? I would not.


I really think if we get more wars it is not going to be between USA and China directly, but through third party states. It IS going to be the cold war all over again. I am already looking forward to this. Clancys novels has been utterly shoddy ever since the fall of the Soviet Empire :rotfl:

[August]

Let us presuppose that China had numerous spy sattelites orbiting Earth and often over american soil.

What makes you think they don't already?

[ASWnut101]

Exactly, August

[Narcosis]

A good book to buy is the "Clash of Civilzations"
by Proff. Samuel P. Huntington, the Eaton Professor of the Science of Government and Director of the John M. Olin Institute for Strategic Studies at Harvard University

He predicted that Islam would be a threat to the west a decade before 9/11.
You read his book, he claims if the west don't wake up, they will fall to a conflict with Islam and China.
Deng Xaioping reportedly asserted in 1991, that a Cold War is under way between China and America.


What is shocking about this book, is that every thing Proff. Samuel P. Huntington has predicted so far, has been 100% accurate.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/economics/misc/clash.html

[ASWnut101]

Theres another.....

"Jerusalem Countdown" (John Hagee)
About all of the stuff in the middle east.
especially damming, though, is that this book was written well before all of the stuff in the Mid East, Published later, and EVERYTHING it predicted came true. One worry though, is that if all of this stuff in this book happened, he also predicts that Russia will come to the side of the Arabs during the "final days" of the mid east.

But remember that not all preditions come true.....

[TteFAboB]

The Chinese are finally leaving the dark ages, they will not allow their government to involve China in a world war and ruin what progress they've made so far. The day China goes to war the dictatorship falls. They can barely control the population at the coast and the press already.

[Ishmael]

I've been out of town the last few days retrieving some of my recently passed mother-in-law's things for my wife. Here's my take on the situation. The Chinese government is Socialist/communist in name only. Over the past 25 years, they have transformed themselves into a fascist/capitalist state. They have done this for many reasons, but one must look into Chinese history,especially that of the last 200 years. The Chinese have had to deal with foreign intervention into their country from the days of the opium wars up to 1978. The leadership has a very real phobia against instability and foreign influence into what they regard as their internal affairs. After the innumerable famines and instability since the decline of the emperors through the aftermath of the Cultural Revolution, they will always choose stability and control over anything as messy as democracy. Contrast Tien an Men against Yeltsin standing up to the tanks in front of the Russian parliament. The Chinese philosophy has always been,in the event of conflict, to send sons to fight on both sides so that whoever wins, the family survives. Combine that with China's classic xenophobia, after all the literal translation of the Cantonese word for foreigner, Gwailoh, is Foreign Devil.

So the Chinese learned the lessons of the Japanese in World War 2. That it is much harder to break up an economic empire than it is to break up a military one. They have realized that you don't have to conquer the world when you can just buy it. Also, the Chinese civilization is over 4000 years old and culturally unchanged. The Confucian ethics of Family, Learning, Ambition and Subtlety are still paramount today. Since their Mandate of Heaven is so old, they can think & plan in terms of hundreds of years. They see themselves as the emerging superpower and are determined to resume their rightful role as the Middle Kingdom. With the combined military and economic power of 1/5th of the human population, they have an economy of scale unmatched by any one nation or bloc of nations.

So I will list what I know to be true:

1. Since the death of Mao, increasing numbers of Chinese have populated the student bodies of the top Business and Technology schools in the US. I remember seeing busloads of Chinese tourists getting their pictures taken on the campuses of Cal Tech in Pasadena and USC Business schools.

2. When they have made deals with US corporations, it is almost always for technology transfers that are built in China. In many cases, these technologies are dual-use for civilian and military purposes.

3. As the Katrina Leung and Wen Ho Lee cases illustrated, Chinese intelligence has thoroughly penetrated US nuclear weapons labs and FBI counterintelligence efforts directed at them. The fact that neither case ever went to trial is indicative of the subtlety of their work and the depth of Chinese influence onto the US government of both political parties.

4. They are happily financing Bush's disastrous foreign policy adventures while using the US dollars hemorraghing from this country to upgrade their military technology, buy up key strategic industries and cut deals with foreign energy producers in a non-threatening manner to secure an ever-larger share of global energy production.

5.They have both propped up and used North Korea as a stalking horse to distract the US from their goal of reunification with Taiwan, peacefully if they can, by overwhelming force if necessary.

6.They have transferred military technology to countries that the US government sees as adverseries while professing to be a cooperative agent for stability with the US.

7.When they are ready to strike, they will dump all of their dollar holdings en masse, triggering an economic depression in the US that will dwarf the 1930's. At that time they will seize Taiwan by force while neutralizing the US Pacific fleet. With over a billion people, they are convinced that they can survive and prevail in a nuclear exchange with the US and have said so.

8. At the same time I see them moving into the Persian Gulf and Central Asia in force to secure the bulk of world oil supplies. To the people of those lands they will roll over them as quickly and ruthlessly as the Mongols did 1000 years ago with corresponding slaughter. At the same time they will move qiuckly to neutralize India who they see as their only serious rival in their New World Order.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Immacolata]

Sounds like it is taken straight out of a Clancy novel. But some things you got right I think. Their economic ambition is sky high. And the buying of us debt will come back and bite the US in the butt. Hard.

Also try to imagine yourself sitting in the chinese government and watching USA fool around in Afghanistan and Iraq. Why they ask themselves as they are amused by the prospect of accumulating even more US debt. But why Iraq? It didn't make sense then and it makes especially no sense today. The US will wound itself on that affair, and China can later move in and buy the oil from the now really estranged Iraqi people. "Help" them rebuild their lands once the dust has settled.

[Skybird]

The Chinese do not see nuclear exchange as an acceptable option. If you understand under "exchange" the same as I do than you know that no state, no social structures, no national structures, no nothing will survive that and that survival only means some isolated individuals scattered across the land in microscopic communities until radiation brings them down one by one. Mutual nuclear exchange cannot be won, but all will suffer maximum loss.

They will try to secure their energy needs, and they will try to gain the upper hand on a strategical level, which means economy and money in the first. In this field America is extremely vulnerable, due to it's already monumental debts and deficits. "Leben auf Pump", we say in German. If the flow of investments into the US would be brought to a halt all of a sudden, it would be the death senetence for America, for it has lost the ability to supoport it'S economical and financial existence by it's own ressources, not to mention to maintain the luxury of such a huge military and ricidulously high defense budget. The world indirectly already pays massively into that budget, some bitter truth America does hate to be reminded of. All major powers in europe since 1500 sooner or later pumped more money into their empirial ambitions than economically they could afford, and like you can read so masterly illustrated in "The rise and fall of the great powers" by Paul Kennedy they all were brought to braking point over issues related to their unhealthy state fiannces, sprinting inflation and monumental state deficits.

I do not fear chinese armies storimng all over the globe, Chinese history always has been aimed to hold together what they considered to be their territory, but from all the major empires the world has ever seen, China probably has been one of the most defensive and less aggressive (beyond it's border) ones. Don't mix them up with the Mongoles - china and Mongolian Khans are two completely different things.

So, China will use military to project it'S influuence locally close to it's mainlands and neighbouring regions of vital interests (Chinese Sea, etc), but beyond nthat it is more likely they will focus on economical and financial strategies. Chinese are great and dominant traders - and trade is a force, as is known throughout Asia. Globally, I would be surprised to see China behaving like America (or the Romans): sending battleready combat formations around the globe and outside of what they claim to be their territory or sphere of interest. They will more try to do like the Portugese, Dutch, and eventually later maybe like the British (who kind of mixed the militarily controlled with the economically controlled empire, but control of trade, and thus: sea lanes, still was the major ingredient). All these were economcially controlled empires, not territory-controlling, military empires. The power to control the world does not lie in bombs and guns, but in controlling the banks and the global cash flow.

Or to cut it shorter: money makes the world go round. you can replace the word "money" with "oil", of course, and not loosing any truth in that.

[Perilscope]

...China probably has been one of the most defensive and less aggressive (beyond it's border) ones. Don't mix them up with the Mongoles - china and Mongolian Khans are two completely different things.
So accurate, clearly you know your stuff.

Or to cut it shorter: money makes the world go round. you can replace the word "money" with "oil", of course, and not loosing any truth in that.
Until there is "oil", afterward we need to replace that with whatever comes next. :D
And since ethanol is on the horizon, I suspect that USA, Canada and Russia will be on top for that, they have immense fields to grow the base products.:yep:

[nikimcbee]

No, the cold-war was won........with naught but a McDonalds restaurant:huh: . As cynical it might be, it's pretty much a fact. :D

Does this mean China is not happy with the McDonalds already there, we should open more. :lol:

Capitalism is the world’s pacifier. Going to war with your trading partners is a sure way to trash your country’s economy. The more capitalist China becomes, the less of a threat they are. At the same time, they gain economic ground on the United States; And their military potential is a potent fulcrum of leverage.

Still, it’s a good thing that an ocean separates you people.

My thoughts exactly. I think that we're (US/China) hooked on each others economies (sp). It's the new opium, the US dollar. I hope that their desire to have dollars is stronger than there desire to have Taiwan.:dead: I am worried about our ability to beat them though if we have a fight. In a nutshell, it's the quality vs quantity debate. They are turning to technology AND large numbers.:huh:

[nikimcbee]

ahh, I found it. I heard this guy on the radio, talking about China's economic war against the US. Here's his website. http://www.softwar.net/

[Yahoshua]

Going to war with your trading partners is a sure way to trash your country’s economy.

Really depends on whether you win or not.

The United States would get a little more crowded if China won though.

[Perilscope]

The United States would get a little more crowded if China won though.
I am not so sure about that, well, if China and USA fights conventionally, yes, you are right. However, if they fight nuclear wise, I don't think so. Both side would be polluted to the core. :D

[Yahoshua]

Both side would be polluted to the core.

Correction: Obliterated.

[tycho102]

The Chinese are finally leaving the dark ages, they will not allow their government to involve China in a world war and ruin what progress they've made so far. The day China goes to war the dictatorship falls. They can barely control the population at the coast and the press already.

Bingo.

They have too much to lose. The Chinese are a truely innovative people, and they have been for several thousand years, regardless of Communism. It will come to this low-level stuff. Hell, it may even come to umbrellas with poison darts (actually, hollowed BB's, but I'm not nitpicking).

Will it come to open-warfare over Taiwan?

I don't think so. I honestly think there is under 10% probabilty for that. I obviously just made that number up on the spot, but to give some kind of precision to my opinion, I included it in this post.

North Korea will come to open-warfare before Taiwan. If it comes to War with the NK, then start sweating Taiwan.

As for the sats, I fear China selling the technology to Pakistan and Iran (and Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, NK, and Indonesia).

[The Noob]

Business is war.

Windows is War! Heyl Gates! (http://mxsoftsolution.ytmnd.com/)

[Yahoshua]

Isn't that taking it a wee bit out of context?:o

[The Avon Lady]

The Chinese are a truely innovative people, and they have been for several thousand years, regardless of Communism.
"Innovative" is an understatement (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/10/chinas_executio.html).

Actually, the Nazis did it, too.

[Oberon]

Yeah, like all good Communist governments China is beginning to struggle under its own weight, all it'd take is a wrong move by the leaders and its government overthrow time. It's how the Dragon goes down that is the question, whether it goes down quietly, or it tries to take Taiwan with it. :hmm:

[Skybird]

Innovative I wouldn't call the Chinese, quite the opposite, but they are culturally on a very high education level which still gives them strong fundament and basis, no matter the commies around or not. Their kingdoms and empires and their society for millenias has been extremely resistant to any changes. If they adopt to modern standards so easily today, then this is because they have opened their culture a bit under european pressure a century ago (and earlier), and by that became a people of very great and far-reaching international traders (Chinese trader communites are dominant in large aprts of South-East Asia), and secondly: they are masterful copiers. But the time they need to import new technology from the West will sooner or later come to an end: what western economical dreamdancers who think of a huge market for decades to come do not see is that the chinese very selectively buy that kind of machinery and equipement that enables them to build the end products themselves, including these machineries. So, sooner or later the massive traffic of goods tom china will come to a stall - and reverse (like it already is the case with textilres and shoes). Airbus seems to stall, the future competitor to Boeing will be the chinese. They already have exported a shipload of land rovers to germany some months ago. The cars are opf terrible quality and security standards are non-existent, but they are cheap. When Japanes Toyotas arrived in Germany thirty years ago, everybody was laughing about their poor qulity and the miniature space inside. Today Toyota can be called the most modern car manufacturer in the world, producing cars with an exceptionel positive statistic in technical malfunctions. Or think of Clocks. Cameras. It will be not much different with China's way in the near future. I am also convinced that sooner or later the communist party regime will come to an end, all by itself, and the transition will go almost unnoticed. I also think that if there will be war in the china region, then it will not be started about Taiwan, which may be taken as a supeficial excuse eventually, but about maritime ressource fields. so such a war will not be a war bnetween China and Taiwan (and powers supporting Taiwan), but a direct confrontation of China versus Japan and the US. I am not informed about Australian and Indonesian interests and capacities in that region.

[Oberon]

Very well said Skybird :up:
Spratly islands anyone?