Recent "Desks Awash" test results

[HEMISENT]

I've been doing some testing using NYGM at the WAW forum. The subject came up about whether or not decks awash has any value, in other words is it simply eye candy. Great news is that it definately helps reduce your detectability to the enemy AI.

Here's the scenario:
1941, 4 enemy warships in a diamond formation(Tribal, Swan, V&W, Flower Corvette)seperation is approx 1000m, hdg 090 11kts vs. VIIC heading 270 directly bow on to lead ship 1kt barely making way. Warships have veteran crews. Seas heavy 15m/s winds, heavy overcast, 2400hrs-no rain or fog to impair visibility.

Test 1 VIIC at std surface depth
1300m meter starts dirtying a bit(green-brown-green)
1200m meter flickers to red (green-red-green)
1000m meter solid red (no aggressive action from enemy)
950m enemy starts firing

Test 2 VIIC at decks awash 7-8m depth
800m meter starts dirtying a bit(green-brown-green)
750m meter starts dirtying a bit more aggressively(green-brown-green)
650m meter starts dirtying faster & more aggressively(green-brown-red-green)
600m meter goes solid red then green(no enemy action yet)
500m meter goes solid red then green(no enemy action yet)
400m meter goes solid red then green (more red than green-no enemy action yet)
300m meter goes solid red deck guns fire, searchlights on, outboard warships begin course change, lead ship increases speed & attempts ram.

summation: approx 500m difference in in initial detectability (1300 v 800)
approx 650m difference in actual enemy AI attack/aggression/manuevering(950 v 300)
************************************************** ********
Same time/weather perimeters as before except: seas 9m/s

Surfaced:
2100m meter flickers lightly(dirty green)
2000m meter flickers faster(dirtry green-green)
1900m meter changing (green-brown-green)
1800m meter hits solid brown first time(green-brown-green)
1700m meter 1st time red momentarily(green-red-dirty green-green)
1600m meter goes red solidly then flickers(red-brown-red)
1500m same
1400m meter mostly red(red-brown-red)
1300m solid red, searchlights, guns, warships speed up and attack

Decks Awash:
1500m meter shows minor flickering(dirty green)
1400m meter flickering(lt brn-red-green)
1300m meter flickering(red-brown-red-green)
1200m meter faster flickering(red-brown-red-green)
1150m meter solid red flickers to brown
600m searchlights, guns, warships manuevering

summation: approx 600m difference in in initial detectability (2100 v 1500)
approx 700m difference in actual enemy AI attack/aggression/manuevering(1300 v 600)
************************************************** ********
Same time/weather perimeters as before except: seas 0m/s dead calm

Surfaced:
3000m meter goes brown & stays brown
2800m meter goes solid red & stays red
2200m meter solid red warships begin manuevering
1900m searchlights lead warships open fire

Decks Awash:
2950m meter shows minor flickering(dirty green)
2600m meter flickering(green-brown-green)
2550m meter solid brown
2400m meter goes solid red-stays red
1750m searchlights, guns, warships manuevering

summation: 50m difference in initial detectability (3000 v 2950) however decks awash allows a bit of gray area in detectability between 2950 & 2550.
approx 400m difference at point where meter is full red (2800 v 2400) and your boat is detectable
approx 150m difference at point of enemy AI attack/aggression (1900 v 1750)
Decks Awash is marginally beneficial in calm seas, not worth the risk

[VonHelsching]

That´s what I call a comprehensive test and test log! Well done, sir.

The results are verifying a feeling I had: Since I mostly hunted warships, I saw that I had bigger chances of success getting undetected when decks wash than surfaced (when I had a very green crew unable to lock / identify the target and *had* to use the WO). I didn´t have anything to back it up, since I wasn´t using the cheat-o-meter.

Well done again.

Von

[Myxale]

Great Scott! If this findings are real, then mate out little sim is cooler thatn i thought!:rock:

Kudos for the test!

[HEMISENT]

Also, on another note. Now it seems that surface attacks on convoys are possible at night/stormy weather. I pulled this off successfully during my latest WAW patrol. I was able to run up and down the convoy lanes after firing my eels and by keeping careful watch on the escorts position I was able to escape out the back end undetected. They new I was there but just couldn't find me.

[EmeAzul]

Hemisent, your test was very interesting and opens up a whole new avenue of playing the game. Would you mind telling me what you have your submarine SurfaceDepth set at to be able to run Decks Awash at 7 to 8 meters? Mine is set 6.8m, which I think means I would not be able to run deck awash at 7m or higher, i.e. I would be submerged? Thanks for your help. EmeAzul

[CWorth]

I wonder if any of this holds true with the GW mod..if not hopefully they put some time in to find out what needs done to get it.This would make surface attacks much more interesting.

[Der Teddy Bar]

HEMISENT,
Thanks for taking the time to test this and more so to share this very useful information.

I would also like to bring to every ones attention at how well the NYGM AI Sensor Mod works to allow realistic night time surfaced attacks on convoys!

NYGM Feature revisited #6a - NYGM AI Visual Sensor Mod <== Link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98060)

Speed has also has an impact on your ability to remain undetected. At ahead standard you are at the compromise speed, fast enough to get around and not excessive in allowing you to be detected. At flank speed you might be detected at much longer ranges. At a speed less than 7 knots (ahead 1/3 is recommended) you might not be detected till much closer or at all.

~ The Merchant Visual Sensor has in comparison the Escorts Visual Sensor a reduced range and capability. The reduced capability is most evident at night.
~ The Fishing Vessel Visual Sensor is the same as the Merchant Visual Sensor with reduced range to be in line with the vessels height.
~ The Elco Visual Sensor is the same as the Escort Visual Sensor reduced range to be in line with the vessels height.

When the AI goes into a High Alert state the detection ranges will greatly increase as the AI is now actively looking for you. This means that where as previously you might have been able to get within 2000 metres of the ship undetected you might now find that you are being detected at 5000 metres.

[GT182]

HEMISENT, that sounds great. Especially in foul weather when it's difficult to lock on to a target and keep it locked.

[HEMISENT]

Hemisent, your test was very interesting and opens up a whole new avenue of playing the game. Would you mind telling me what you have your submarine SurfaceDepth set at to be able to run Decks Awash at 7 to 8 meters? Mine is set 6.8m, which I think means I would not be able to run deck awash at 7m or higher, i.e. I would be submerged? Thanks for your help. EmeAzul

8 meters

[Phantom II]

I tried this little technique today, and it appears to work quite well. I was stalking this convoy on the Western Approaches in December 1939. As nightfall came, I set kept my sub depth at 7-8 meters, and I was able to get right past the 3 escorts, smack into the middle of the convoy, where I sunk a Large Merchant, an Old Liner as well as a Large Cargo, before descending to 25m. Those escorts never got a shot at me once...

-Phantom

[Der Teddy Bar]

I tried this little technique today, and it appears to work quite well. I was stalking this convoy on the Western Approaches in December 1939. As nightfall came, I set kept my sub depth at 7-8 meters, and I was able to get right past the 3 escorts, smack into the middle of the convoy, where I sunk a Large Merchant, an Old Liner as well as a Large Cargo, before descending to 25m. Those escorts never got a shot at me once...

-Phantom Way to GO!!

Remember that on the surface the escort cannot use their sonar/hydrophones and you are fast, so stay surfaced until forced to submerge.

Head over to Wolves At War! (http://www.wolvesatwar.org/) (<== link) and in the "Scheherazade" Night Club you will find a wealth of information from other players using the NYGM TW mod regarding how best to evade escorts.


This is from a post I made titled 'Best Practice - Convoy Attack (http://radioroom.wolvesatwar.org/viewtopic.php?t=6135&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)' which is a sticky at WaW

I would like to take this opportunity to highlight that fact that with the NYGM AI Sensor Update that at night it is now possible to close in on a convoy to distances under a 1000 metres, possibly a lot less.

NYGM have added many new sensor nodes to the DAT files and we now have a different Visual sensor for the escorts, elco , aircraft fighter, aircraft bomber, merchant ships & small vessels.

These sensors have been modified, as best as possible within the SHIII framework, to mimic their respective roles.

We have greatly reduced the enemy AI’s night time sight and with the right approach as will be outlined below it may be possible to get within 800 metres of an escort on the surface and not be seen.

We have also reduced the AI visual abilities in line with the MPS i.e. wind speed. The greater the wind speed the less detectable your boat will be. Not undetectable, just less.

What I am saying is do not submerge to make an attack on a convoy unless it is during the day and you cannot shadow the convoy till night time as was historically correct.

If you must attack submerged try and do so from within or from the first outside row of the convoy and do not hang around DIVE deep and remove yourself from the area, as was historically correct.

There are several important aspects to making a successful night time attack.

The first is speed, the faster you travel the more likely that you will be detected. As such, you should position yourself in front to the side so as to allow the ahead 1/3 speed approach.

The second is 'aspect', as has been talked about often, the NYGM AI Sensor Mod allows a player to get much closer when he presents the enemy AI with the smallest possible profile. The two aspects are bow on and bow off. Bow on covers about 60 degrees, or 330 to 030 and 150 to 210 degrees relative. Bow off is from 030 to 150 and 210 to 330 degrees relative.

The bow on/off examples are not to be taken as written in stone, there are many circumstances such as time of day, your speed, the AI’s ability that will make the figures at times smaller or larger.

For BOW ON and clear day with:
0 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 4500
10 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 3300

For BOW OFF (i.e. Side On) and clear day with:
0 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 7400
10 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 6000

For BOW ON and a clear night with:
0 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 1200
10 mps a ESCORT might NOT detected you <-- NOTE!

For BOW OFF (i.e. Side On) and a clear night with:
0 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 2800
10 mps a ESCORT might detect you at around 2000

Note that these are for ESCORTS, merchant ships are in comparison blind. Very important to remember as you get ridiculously close to the merchant ships.

If your attack run is not right, remove yourself from the attack and reposition yourself for another run.

When you turn away from the convoy either to reposition yourself or after firing your torpedoes turn at ahead full and at full rudder. The less time you expose your flank the less likely you are to be detected. If some flank has to be exposed, subject to distance, expose your flank to a merchant ship.

While considering the fact that we have ensured now that every hit from a enemy deck gun will always incur hull integrity damage, do not submerge unless you have too, you may not have been detected and when you crash dive you might be.

If you must dive after being detected then dive at flank, stay at flank till you think the escort will be within about 5000 metres and at which time order silent running and then ahead 1/3 till you think the escort will be within 3000+ metres and then go to 1+ knots and deeper. The figures mention above are mot magic cut off figures, but are ones that I have deduced give me a fair chance of removing myself and not giving away my changed position, i.e. course change when submerged.


I hope that this information will be of assistance to lengthening you careers.

[Phantom II]

My game with that patrol keeps crashing >_< I've got a saved game, but that also crashes whenever I try to load it. Gonna have to reinstall SH3 again tomorrow and see if it helps. Either that or I'm chucking my RAM out :/

-Phantom

[HEMISENT]

I'm now doing a couple tests in a campaign mission with pretty satisfactory results.

Night, Full moon, Calm seas. Excellent visibility. A three pack of destroyers heading roughly 090 My boat is at 7.5m, speed 2kts,heading 360 with the stern to the enemy. They motored by at 4100m I put in just enough left rudder to keep the stern directly on so as to reduce my profile. Worked great.

[GT182]

Hemi, is the WO and Watch Crew on deck with Decks Awash? Also, is it the diesel or electric engines that are running?

[HEMISENT]

Hemi, is the WO and Watch Crew on deck with Decks Awash? Also, is it the diesel or electric engines that are running?

Fully manned watch crew & diesels same as normal surface depth only boat is riding lower in the water reducing it's profile.

[LaikaFatBum]

NYGM do very good job :up: thankyou to sharing results and will try later. Already do night time attacks, very exciting.

[Sailor Steve]

...diesels same as normal surface depth only boat is riding lower in the water reducing it's profile.
That's the only thing I don't like about the decks-awash mods. Normally they would only use electrics in that situation. Of course if the game allowed us to use electrics at our discretion (i.e. while surfaced) that wouldn't be a problem.:damn:

[Boris]

To use the engines we choose to would be great... sound like one of those things that can't be modded...

Is there any way to make the crew stay on deck with decks awash, ie. make the crew stay on deck at lower depths... where the conning tower is still out of the water.

[Rose]

Was running with just the conning tower above the surface (ie, decks awash) a realistic maneouvre? It seems to me that one of the planesmen made an even slight error, the watch crew would be mighty angry. :D

[Sailor Steve]

Normally it was only used when approaching for an attack, at very slow speeds. That way they could dive rapidly if they were spotted.

Is there any way to make the crew stay on deck with decks awash, ie. make the crew stay on deck at lower depths... where the conning tower is still out of the water.
That's the whole point. The mod gives the sub a new surfaced depth, the game thinks the boat is on the surface and the crew stays on the bridge. The only drawback is not being able to run the electric motors.

[VON_CAPO]

I've been doing some testing using NYGM at the WAW forum. The subject came up about whether or not decks awash has any value, in other words is it simply eye candy. Great news is that it definately helps reduce your detectability to the enemy AI. This is an excellent new. :up:

Because to try a realistic attack on the surface, with poor visibility or at night, is almost impossible against the AI. :damn::damn::damn: